Gong Veloce impressions

[TomW]

Session 6 today on Veloce M. Perfect power on the 9 hyperlink. Fantastic session of 35 km, doing max velocity carves up and downwind, full leaning over up wind heel to toeside and 360s leaning over. Now I'm waiting for the replacement 40cm surf stab so I can bolt on the Pro M to the 100cm carbon mast and make comparison. It's in the mail.
My conclusions so far are that if you are just cruising around, relaxed and doing maneuvers and tricks, the pro m is the choice. But as soon as you start pushing the limits, with a lot of power in the kite and doing more aggressive riding, the Veloce rewards. Its sportier, more sensitive to input and just a little notch more performance. I don't see them as complementary, but you will choose one or the other.
I'm in Europe, so my analogy is, you can get a VW Golf with 180 hp and front wheel drive ( Pro M) or 250 hp VWGolf with 4 wheel drive ( the discontinued R32, which I've owned) ( the Veloce) Both the same car, but the R32 will be more fun, but still not win any races.
Or if you are into racing get a race wing and 110cm mast ( a Ferrari).

[twig]

Hi Tom,
Im looking for advice on gong foils;
Im trying to learn tacks and gybes on a moses 101mast, wing590 (also have 558)+grove raceboard. - goal is to go racing later. I can go really fast both directions, downwind and upwind but has only nailed one gybe yet(though with footswitch in middle of the downloop) feeling confident riding fast and experienced in one way, but when it comes to gybes and tacks it's still very slow progress, and I just want to speed the progress!

Wich gong setup would possibly help me get my tacks and gybes as fast as possible? im thinking that it have to be pretty easy so that I just nail stuff very soon, but then again not too far from the 590 wing so that it all translates to that setup pretty soon...

Thinking: the original allvator (surf) would be way too easy?
the curve M could be the wing to go with, right? Closest to 633..
the Veloce M is maybe too close to 590/ a too advanced wing - maybe not something to learn tack/gybes super fast with?

Regarding mast I guess a 80 or 90 would fit, possibly even the 100 that im already used with? but then maybe to keep this foil as a surfy one, then a 80cm could be good?

Later on Im also thinking of getting the curve XXL to be able to pump, then the 80mast could be good? however I dont want to be too concerned about that, just getting my tacks and gybes with kite as soon as possible!
Thanks!

[Flyboy]

Hi Tom,
Im looking for advice on gong foils;
Im trying to learn tacks and gybes on a moses 101mast, wing590 (also have 558)+grove raceboard. - goal is to go racing later. I can go really fast both directions, downwind and upwind but has only nailed one gybe yet(though with footswitch in middle of the downloop) feeling confident riding fast and experienced in one way, but when it comes to gybes and tacks it's still very slow progress, and I just want to speed the progress!

Wich gong setup would possibly help me get my tacks and gybes as fast as possible? im thinking that it have to be pretty easy so that I just nail stuff very soon, but then again not too far from the 590 wing so that it all translates to that setup pretty soon...

Thinking: the original allvator (surf) would be way too easy?
the curve M could be the wing to go with, right? Closest to 633..
the Veloce M is maybe too close to 590/ a too advanced wing - maybe not something to learn tack/gybes super fast with?

Regarding mast I guess a 80 or 90 would fit, possibly even the 100 that im already used with? but then maybe to keep this foil as a surfy one, then a 80cm could be good?

Later on Im also thinking of getting the curve XXL to be able to pump, then the 80mast could be good? however I dont want to be too concerned about that, just getting my tacks and gybes with kite as soon as possible!
Thanks!

I haven't tried the Veloce M wing, but I can say that the Curve M wing (MPro) is fairly different from the 633 & I'm pretty sure the Veloce M is pretty different from the 590. I have a 100cm carbon LP foil with a 700 cm2 wing that would be somewhat similar to the 590. Gybing it is much more difficult than gybing the MPro. Unless you carry good speed throughout the turn it will drop off the plane. The MPro is much more forgiving - it will keep you up on foil at much slower speeds so that it's possible to complete even an underpowered gybe. I certainly recommend it for learning how to gybe & tack. I'm guessing the Veloce M would be quite similar, but based on Tom's reports a little faster, so might be a better choice if you're looking to transition to racing.

[TomW]

Hi Tom,
Im looking for advice on gong foils;
Im trying to learn tacks and gybes on a moses 101mast, wing590 (also have 558)+grove raceboard. - goal is to go racing later. I can go really fast both directions, downwind and upwind but has only nailed one gybe yet(though with footswitch in middle of the downloop) feeling confident riding fast and experienced in one way, but when it comes to gybes and tacks it's still very slow progress, and I just want to speed the progress!

Wich gong setup would possibly help me get my tacks and gybes as fast as possible? im thinking that it have to be pretty easy so that I just nail stuff very soon, but then again not too far from the 590 wing so that it all translates to that setup pretty soon...

Thinking: the original allvator (surf) would be way too easy?
the curve M could be the wing to go with, right? Closest to 633..
the Veloce M is maybe too close to 590/ a too advanced wing - maybe not something to learn tack/gybes super fast with?

Regarding mast I guess a 80 or 90 would fit, possibly even the 100 that im already used with? but then maybe to keep this foil as a surfy one, then a 80cm could be good?

Later on Im also thinking of getting the curve XXL to be able to pump, then the 80mast could be good? however I dont want to be too concerned about that, just getting my tacks and gybes with kite as soon as possible!
Thanks!

For your progression, I would get M pro with 100 cm carbon mast/fuselage and 40 cm surf stabilizer. That would be significantly easier than 590. I rode 590 for a year, so can compare. I would not get 40 cm kite stabilizer, it's not as stable, and I've found it unpredictable.
Once you learn all gybes and tacks on this setup, I would start practicing on race foil and dump the 590. You're not going to win any races on the 590.
Transitions are difficult, it takes dedication and time to get there.

[azoele]

I haven't tried the Veloce M wing, but I can say that the Curve M wing (MPro) is fairly different from the 633 & I'm pretty sure the Veloce M is pretty different from the 590. I have a 100cm carbon LP foil with a 700 cm2 wing that would be somewhat similar to the 590. Gybing it is much more difficult than gybing the MPro. Unless you carry good speed throughout the turn it will drop off the plane. The MPro is much more forgiving - it will keep you up on foil at much slower speeds so that it's possible to complete even an underpowered gybe. I certainly recommend it for learning how to gybe & tack. I'm guessing the Veloce M would be quite similar, but based on Tom's reports a little faster, so might be a better choice if you're looking to transition to racing.

Hi Flyboy,

perhaps you could elaborate on the differences between the 633 and the MPro?
The people at Gong suggested me it's very similar in behaviour, and I usually read that the two are quite comparable, so am very curious of your impressions of the two.
I was a bit skeptical, seeing that the two wings have different size, shape and A/R, but the support was adamant that the two wings do ride very similarly, so I trusted them and the internet grapevine implicitly, I suppose.

I own the 633, and am waiting to receive the 100cm carbon mast with L Pro wing, which they suggested due to my "significant weight" (ahem... )
I was about to buy the Veloce version reading Tom's comment, but felt my level is still too low for that: no tacks, and my flying foot switches are worth of an action movie for all the things that happen at the same time

Lopi

[Flyboy]

I haven't tried the Veloce M wing, but I can say that the Curve M wing (MPro) is fairly different from the 633 & I'm pretty sure the Veloce M is pretty different from the 590. I have a 100cm carbon LP foil with a 700 cm2 wing that would be somewhat similar to the 590. Gybing it is much more difficult than gybing the MPro. Unless you carry good speed throughout the turn it will drop off the plane. The MPro is much more forgiving - it will keep you up on foil at much slower speeds so that it's possible to complete even an underpowered gybe. I certainly recommend it for learning how to gybe & tack. I'm guessing the Veloce M would be quite similar, but based on Tom's reports a little faster, so might be a better choice if you're looking to transition to racing.

Hi Flyboy,

perhaps you could elaborate on the differences between the 633 and the MPro?
The people at Gong suggested me it's very similar in behaviour, and I usually read that the two are quite comparable, so am very curious of your impressions of the two.
I was a bit skeptical, seeing that the two wings have different size, shape and A/R, but the support was adamant that the two wings do ride very similarly, so I trusted them and the internet grapevine implicitly, I suppose.

I own the 633, and am waiting to receive the 100cm carbon mast with L Pro wing, which they suggested due to my "significant weight" (ahem... )
I was about to buy the Veloce version reading Tom's comment, but felt my level is still too low for that: no tacks, and my flying foot switches are worth of an action movie for all the things that happen at the same time

Lopi

Sorry - I haven't actually ridden the 633 wing, so my view is based on the same as yours: "that the two wings have different size, shape and A/R". My impression of what I have heard is that in terms of lift, the MPro is not far off the 633, but the other characteristics would more reflect the differences in size shape & A/R. I'm guessing that the 633 is slower & more orientated towards riding in surf, where the MPro is more of an all-round wing. Perhaps Tom can elaborate on the differences. I sometimes ride with a guy on a 633 & I notice that he rides much slower than I do - but whether that's by choice or due to the design of the wing, I couldn't say. It's interesting that Gong does not make a really low aspect wing for any of the foiling disciplines.

[azoele]

Sorry - I haven't actually ridden the 633 wing, so my view is based on the same as yours: "that the two wings have different size, shape and A/R". My impression of what I have heard is that in terms of lift, the MPro is not far off the 633, but the other characteristics would more reflect the differences in size shape & A/R. I'm guessing that the 633 is slower & more orientated towards riding in surf, where the MPro is more of an all-round wing. Perhaps Tom can elaborate on the differences. I sometimes ride with a guy on a 633 & I notice that he rides much slower than I do - but whether that's by choice or due to the design of the wing, I couldn't say. It's interesting that Gong does not make a really low aspect wing for any of the foiling disciplines.

Thanks anyway.
I would have loved to read the impressions of someone who had ridden both.
Perhaps Tom will share his experiences on this.

I am eagerly awaiting delivery of the L Pro (Curve) foil, but it'll take me some time to gather meaningful experiences to share...

Lopi

P.s.
the 633 can ride very slow, but very inefficiently, flying at a steep upward angle. It needs lots of kite pull in this way, though.
Its other key characteristic — besides how easy it is to turn —is the amount of lift it produces at speed, which is very significant.
Perhaps the GONGs (Curve and Veloce) can provide low speed lift without the massive push of the 633.
As a very green foiler, I find it hard to tame the 633 at speed, and never got over 19 knots on it...

[TomW]

I have ridden moses633 2 years, and now Pro M 6-7 months. Pro m with 40 cm surf stabilizer.
They are very similar. If you are beginner, you won't feel any difference. If you are doing confident flying transitions you will.
Let me list what M pro has for difference:
Handles turbulent water better
Has less tendency to lift uncontrolled in max powered wind on kite and overtaking waves
Is more agile.
Has more top speed and stability at top speed
Has more speed and drive in carves.
It doesn't float on side.
It's more durable construction

It's not huge difference in ride or these points, but put together all these points and it wins if you are proficient.
Moses 633 is excellent product, it's a great choice.
Gong m pro is also excellent, but with some advantages.

I'd choose based on availability and pocketbook. The most important thing is to get out on the water. Now.

[azoele]

Thanks Tom, perfectly clear!

One last question: you state that the M Pro doesn't float on the side.

So, does it sink quickly even with the Carbon Mast? The 633 with the 91cm usually floats indefinitely (and it is also difficult to reach, at time, due to currents...).
The Veloce M too sinks quickly?

Thank you again.

I have ridden moses633 2 years, and now Pro M 6-7 months. Pro m with 40 cm surf stabilizer.
They are very similar. If you are beginner, you won't feel any difference. If you are doing confident flying transitions you will.
Let me list what M pro has for difference:
Handles turbulent water better
Has less tendency to lift uncontrolled in max powered wind on kite and overtaking waves
Is more agile.
Has more top speed and stability at top speed
Has more speed and drive in carves.
It doesn't float on side.
It's more durable construction

It's not huge difference in ride or these points, but put together all these points and it wins if you are proficient.
Moses 633 is excellent product, it's a great choice.
Gong m pro is also excellent, but with some advantages.

I'd choose based on availability and pocketbook. The most important thing is to get out on the water. Now.

[TomW]

Thanks Tom, perfectly clear!

One last question: you state that the M Pro doesn't float on the side.

So, does it sink quickly even with the Carbon Mast? The 633 with the 91cm usually floats indefinitely (and it is also difficult to reach, at time, due to currents...).
The Veloce M too sinks quickly?

Thank you again.

I have ridden moses633 2 years, and now Pro M 6-7 months. Pro m with 40 cm surf stabilizer.
They are very similar. If you are beginner, you won't feel any difference. If you are doing confident flying transitions you will.
Let me list what M pro has for difference:
Handles turbulent water better
Has less tendency to lift uncontrolled in max powered wind on kite and overtaking waves
Is more agile.
Has more top speed and stability at top speed
Has more speed and drive in carves.
It doesn't float on side.
It's more durable construction

It's not huge difference in ride or these points, but put together all these points and it wins if you are proficient.
Moses 633 is excellent product, it's a great choice.
Gong m pro is also excellent, but with some advantages.

I'd choose based on availability and pocketbook. The most important thing is to get out on the water. Now.

Hi,

Both Veloce M on 100 carbon mast and Pro M on aluminum mast sink. They sink about same speed.
Whether that is " quick" or " slow" sinking, i dont know because i have not used any other sinking set-ups for more that a 15-20 min and that only few times.
I dont find it difficult. I can actually line up kite for start, release board and put up feet and as board is sinking, time my kite movement to rise up on board as it sinks, in syncronisation.
Note the Veloce M has 1/2 the volume of the Pro M, So its not inconcievable that that Pro M might float somewhat on the 100cm mast. have not tried that yet.

Yes, the Moses 91cm mast and 633 wing will float forever, and I started to get irritated about that as i started to learn more advance transitions and falling off more often. The floating on side advantage while starting was quicky outwieghed by the disadvantage of having to drag upwind to get the board.