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How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

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tkaraszewski
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How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby tkaraszewski » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:29 am

Today I was out on a 10m Soul and a Moses 695/421 foil (strapless), and doing some top speed runs. The wind was relatively light, averaging about 14 knots, and I was able to hit my personal best speed of 27.2 knots.

I generally find it easy to go fast in light (not SUPER light, but relatively light) wind, as the water is flat, and when there are 2-3 foot waves it's really hard to focus on speed rather than keeping the foil in the water.

If you wanted to break 30 knots with the above conditions/equipment, what would you be looking for? Better skill? Could top pros easily crack 30 knots on the same equipment above in 15 knots? Bigger kite for more power? Racier foil? Foot straps?

I'm not sure if I'm running up against the limits of my equipment and my skill is pretty good, or if I still have a lot of room for skill improvement.

Note that I'm talking about off the wind speed on a reach, not VMG or upwind speed.

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby jibskib » Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:50 am

Not an answer - but also curious how the kite plays a role. Obviously the wing shape has a limiting factor in design, but as i have been internally debating tube vs foil kite for exactly this same scenario (light wind speed runs/touring) I am very curious if the design of the 10m Soul would be significantly slower than say the Sonic 3.

My assumption is that a tube kite is slower than both. I was out on 12m Airush Ultra in 9-12 knots tonight and had these same questions...how much better would I be doing on a 12m Soul?

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby cglazier » Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:03 am

The Soul is a great foil kite for most of us and it can attain speeds higher than probably any inflatable kites. But there are even faster foil kites used by racers.. they are just not as user-friendly as the Soul.

Some of the slowest inflatable kites are the zero strut or one strut ones.. they are not designed for speed. Perhaps the fastest inflatable kite is the Ozone Edge which was favored by racers before they discovered foil kites were even faster.

I find my hydrofoil wing also limits my top speed. I usually use a large slow wing (1200 cm2) for fun but I know my smaller wings have better top speed.

😉 CG

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby Foil » Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:05 pm

cglazier wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:03 am
The Soul is a great foil kite for most of us and it can attain speeds higher than probably any inflatable kites. But there are even faster foil kites used by racers.. they are just not as user-friendly as the Soul.

Some of the slowest inflatable kites are the zero strut or one strut ones.. they are not designed for speed. Perhaps the fastest inflatable kite is the Ozone Edge which was favored by racers before they discovered foil kites were even faster.

I find my hydrofoil wing also limits my top speed. I usually use a large slow wing (1200 cm2) for fun but I know my smaller wings have better top speed.

😉 CG
I would add to the above by recommending straps, front and back,
maybe a seat harness, to hold the power better low down.
skill must play a big part, and that needs practice, racing against someone you know is fast helps you compare body position, legs and knee angles and feet width seem to play a part.
my sailing buddy is on a mission to push for the highest speeds possible, it's fair to say he is looking at the limiting factors very closely, and looking at all the elements to get the maximum speed off wind, he said his stance is now holding him back, and has reached the limit of available strap positions, so a race board is now on order from groove, his chrono v3 ul works well as the gusts which gives extra busts of speed are controlled well by the chrono, the race wings he is now using don't try to lift him into a unfavourable position as the gusts come through, he is thinking he may need to even buy a race kite of the 15mtr size to see if that's in any way the missing link, I have had to get a faster wing set just to keep him in sight, great fun drag racing him which always ends with a good big boost.

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby SaulOhio » Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:38 pm

jibskib wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:50 am
Not an answer - but also curious how the kite plays a role. Obviously the wing shape has a limiting factor in design, but as i have been internally debating tube vs foil kite for exactly this same scenario (light wind speed runs/touring) I am very curious if the design of the 10m Soul would be significantly slower than say the Sonic 3.

My assumption is that a tube kite is slower than both. I was out on 12m Airush Ultra in 9-12 knots tonight and had these same questions...how much better would I be doing on a 12m Soul?
For speed, I am not sure that foil vs. inflated kite makes a difference. Foils pull like a truck upwind, which is why they are so great for racing, but I got my fasted speed on ice so far on an older inflated kite.

I don't remember if it was a Slingshot Turbo Diesel, or a Liquid Force Havoc. But I got a max speed of 59.8 mph. The top limit, whatever it is, is well above what you will ever get on a hydrofoil on water.

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby Jyoder » Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:48 pm

This has been discussed before. Just plain speed on broad reach, or fastest upwind?

Equipment:
Upwind course: race foil and race foil kite
Broad reach Max speed: any kite will do, small hydrofoil, doesn’t have to be a race foil but that helps as is designed for speed.


Beyond that it’s stance, skill, and conditions

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby dave1986 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:54 pm

Jyoder wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:48 pm
This has been discussed before. Just plain speed on broad reach, or fastest upwind?

Equipment:
Upwind course: race foil and race foil kite
Broad reach Max speed: any kite will do, small hydrofoil, doesn’t have to be a race foil but that helps as is designed for speed.


Beyond that it’s stance, skill, and conditions
You all forgot probably the most important factor of all - To go as fast as possible you need balls of steel !

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby Foil » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:17 pm

dave1986 wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:54 pm
Jyoder wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:48 pm
This has been discussed before. Just plain speed on broad reach, or fastest upwind?

Equipment:
Upwind course: race foil and race foil kite
Broad reach Max speed: any kite will do, small hydrofoil, doesn’t have to be a race foil but that helps as is designed for speed.


Beyond that it’s stance, skill, and conditions
You all forgot probably the most important factor of all - To go as fast as possible you need balls of steel !
and a helmet, and crash jacket,
O! no seaweed, plastic bags or old boat bits floating around.

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby davesails7 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:22 pm

30 knots is really fast! It took me over a year on race gear before I hit 30 knots for the first time. Most sessions I still usually top out just under 30 knots unless the conditions are really good. The difference between 28 knots and 30 knots is a lot to overcome.

I agree with the above comments. The soul is a fine kite for going fast. According to the numbers in this article, Guy Bridge averaged 32.7 knots over a 19km open ocean course in lighthouse to leighton on a soul https://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboardin ... o-leighton. Looks like a 10m in 20 knots, but can't tell for sure. The race kites will give you better angles, and better upwind speed, but I don't think the speed downwind is much different, especially when powered.

I don't know anything about the Moses 695, but just from looking up a picture, it seems like it can go 30 knots.

I think the thing holding you back is not enough power. As a mid fleet racer with a race foil, I don't think I could hit 30 knots on a 10m in 14 knots either. Maybe someone with better skills could, but I'd go for at least a 15m kite for sure, maybe 18m if I was going for all out speed in flat water in 14 knots of wind.

What angle are you sailing to the wind? My top speeds are usually heading around 140-150 degrees from the wind. I'm edging a bit, then just following the kite downwind in the gusts. Heading around 90 degrees to the wind feels faster because of the apparrent wind in your face, but you just can't hold that much power at that angle.

This is a polar from a flat water session so you can see the angles. I was overpowered on my 15m VMG in around 20 knots of wind. This was one of my fastest runs ever. Top 3s speed was 36.9 mph (32.1 kts), top 10s average 35.5 mph (30.8 kts)
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tkaraszewski
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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby tkaraszewski » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:10 pm

davesails7 wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:22 pm
30 knots is really fast! It took me over a year on race gear before I hit 30 knots for the first time. Most sessions I still usually top out just under 30 knots unless the conditions are really good. The difference between 28 knots and 30 knots is a lot to overcome.

I agree with the above comments. The soul is a fine kite for going fast. According to the numbers in this article, Guy Bridge averaged 32.7 knots over a 19km open ocean course in lighthouse to leighton on a soul https://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboardin ... o-leighton. Looks like a 10m in 20 knots, but can't tell for sure. The race kites will give you better angles, and better upwind speed, but I don't think the speed downwind is much different, especially when powered.

I don't know anything about the Moses 695, but just from looking up a picture, it seems like it can go 30 knots.

I think the thing holding you back is not enough power. As a mid fleet racer with a race foil, I don't think I could hit 30 knots on a 10m in 14 knots either. Maybe someone with better skills could, but I'd go for at least a 15m kite for sure, maybe 18m if I was going for all out speed in flat water in 14 knots of wind.

What angle are you sailing to the wind? My top speeds are usually heading around 140-150 degrees from the wind. I'm edging a bit, then just following the kite downwind in the gusts. Heading around 90 degrees to the wind feels faster because of the apparrent wind in your face, but you just can't hold that much power at that angle.

This is a polar from a flat water session so you can see the angles. I was overpowered on my 15m VMG in around 20 knots of wind. This was one of my fastest runs ever. Top 3s speed was 36.9 mph (32.1 kts), top 10s average 35.5 mph (30.8 kts)
Here's polars for my 27.2 knot run.

Image

The polars look weird for several reasons, because this session covered 8 miles of river and the wind direction changes a bit over the course of the river. Also, I tend to do these top speed runs on starboard tack because they align better with the course of the river, there's a "slack water" spot to hit top speed where there's not much current, and because it's my stronger side. I've set the wind angle to match the wind sensor that's only a few hundred meters from the spot I recorded the top speed at the time I was doing these runs.

So, the angle here is about 115 degrees true. Any lower and I start to lose power.


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