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How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

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TomW
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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby TomW » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:53 pm

I really have no idea wtf I'm talking about, but that 695 wing is pretty big. Straps and more power, racers on huge kites in 14 knots. I raced once in the swedish nationals ( dnf 6 out of 8 races) and I was on a 13m sonic 2, the real racers on 18m. Next block of races, wind was like 14-15 knots, I took my 9m hyperlink and they had 15 m FS vmgs minimum. Those dudes ripped around the course and I couldn't finish within the time limits.
I had moses 590 wing. They had these little slivers of wings.

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davesails7
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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby davesails7 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:57 pm

TomW wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:53 pm
that 695 wing is pretty big.
I saw that the 695 wind has 770 cm^2. How much do race foils have? The span is similar to race foils, but not sure about area. Race foils don't tend to publish the area. Area is not part of the IKA numbers that get published. Thickness would also affect it, but not sure how it compares in that regard either.

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Flyboy
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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby Flyboy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:28 pm

davesails7 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:57 pm
TomW wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:53 pm
that 695 wing is pretty big.
I saw that the 695 wind has 770 cm^2. How much do race foils have? The span is similar to race foils, but not sure about area. Race foils don't tend to publish the area. Area is not part of the IKA numbers that get published. Thickness would also affect it, but not sure how it compares in that regard either.
Going by Moses, the wings they advertise as their race wings - the 670 & 671 - list the area as 570 cm2. "Detuned" fast foils they list have 550 - 650 cm2 area & are a little lower aspect. Then they have a couple of wings around 750 cm2 which I guess would be regarded as free ride with a focus on speed. The 679 at 990 cm2 is a free ride wing more focused on carving. The larger wings, like the 633, are slower & focused on surfing ability.

That seems to be where we are these days. I'm curious to know what the volume of sales is for the various types of wing (used for kiting). How many wings are being sold that are 700 cm2 or under? How many wings 1200 cm2 & over? For me, the Gong Mpro which is 1000 cm2 - like the Moses 679 - seems perfect, as it planes very early but still has decent top speed.
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tkaraszewski
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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby tkaraszewski » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:48 pm

I appreciate the comments from everyone, espeically the guys who have done some racing. It sounds like the answer here is, "a little bit of everything", which means I could use a faster foil, bigger kite, more wind, and probably some technique improvement as well, but 27 knots on this setup isn't exactly slow, so I'm not too far off. This tells me I'm on the right track for maximizing speed on the gear that I'm on, and if I want to go faster I need to ride more overpowered or get a faster foil wing, and keep practicing.

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Flyboy
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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby Flyboy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:58 pm

27 knots sounds very fast for that wing. I've got to assume you could squeeze a couple more knots out of a smaller high aspect wing with everything else being equal.

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby plummet » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:11 pm

Here's what I think you need. In order of most important to least important.

Balls of steel.

Technique

Smooth water, the flatter the better, ideally swell and chop combo less than half mast height. If you found the magical flat water location that has enough depth for your mast the you will be cooking. Infact the combo of wind speed, wind angle to smooth/flat water will be key. With out this you are screwed for super high speed.

Wind, lots of it. Its easy to go fast in 30 knots of wind! If you have the water conditions to support speed!

Foil, Bigger wings = more lift = more drag. The smaller and higher aspect the better.

Kite, the higher the aspect the better. But I have done 90kph (49knots) in a kite buggy on a 6m reo so..... if its windy enough the kite is less important. But when you are chasing ultimate speed higher aspect is better. On that day I did 90kph, my mate was on a 5m proto chrono v1 and he was going 2-3kph faster than me. I actually think high aspect lei like an edge might be better than a race foil as there is less parasitic drag of bridles. But you are not at those speeds to worry about bridle drag.


As far as the foil set up is concerned you could try shimming the stabilizer for less aoa between front and rear wing. Lets face it. The fixed aoa of the rear stab is set up for average board speeds, above that you are fighting additional lift and or drag with a stab set up not for ultra high speed. Knock it back 0.5° and test. This could be the difference between 27 and 30 knots all other aspects being equal.

PS I also suggest straps and holding down a big power. Then send it broad reach in a slow radiusing arc down wind as your board speed and apparent wind speed increase the apparent wind wind shift further and further back. The fastest speeds are achieved arcing more and more down wind whilst holding that power on. You get to the limitation of your gear/conditions combo when the kite reaches the edge of the apparent wind window. Then you simply cant go any faster.
Last edited by plummet on Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby plummet » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:19 pm

After all that ramble, i havent gps'd myself on the hydrofoil. I dont have a sea worthy gps. But i have hauled arse as fast as i can go. No idea of the actual speed but my eyethometer says between 50 and 60 kph.... Thats just a blatant guess. The fastest days are definitely the flattest water days.

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Flyboy
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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby Flyboy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:26 pm

The fastest I've gone was on blades on ice, also around 90 kph. Kite style largely irrelevant I would say, under those circumstances. I would suspect wing size/shape is essential, regardless of the "balls of steel". Not sure how much scarier it is to do 30 knots than 27 knots, but I think the ability to eke out a couple more knots would depend a lot on the wing used.

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Flyboy
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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby Flyboy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:32 pm

plummet wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:19 pm
After all that ramble, i havent gps'd myself on the hydrofoil. I dont have a sea worthy gps. But i have hauled arse as fast as i can go. No idea of the actual speed but my eyethometer says between 50 and 60 kph.... Thats just a blatant guess. The fastest days are definitely the flattest water days.
Riding what?

My 1000 cm2 Gong Mpro definitely feels like it "tops out" at a certain point - I'm guessing around 20 knots. Flatter water definitely helps but I feel that at a certain point the foil won't go any faster regardless of how hard you push it.

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Re: How to go faster? Technique or equipment?

Postby plummet » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:36 pm

One last tip on technique. We get used to letting the bar out during a gust and pulling it back in a lull to retain even speed and not get smashed in the gusts.

Throw this technique out the window and when you feel the gust pull the in for extra downwind pull. Arc down wind with the gust and the shifting wind window and milk that gust speed. At that point you will achieve your fastest pb, If you milk the gust for all its worth.

As far as my hunting of max speed with a kite is concerned I've also done 65kph (35 knots) on the landboard and in the shallows on my mutant.


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