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Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

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cglazier
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Re: Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

Postby cglazier » Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:03 am

Windigo1 wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:00 pm
...i prefer swimming back with an inflated kite. Foils kite are great they stay in the air a little bit better than a single strut and will relaunch in a little less wind but you have limited window to relaunch.

All the single struts are lower aspect kites. They are great for foiling because they are light but of course the disadvantages of a lower aspect LEI are there. They don't go upwind as well as a high aspect kites but on a foil that's no big deal and the wind range is smaller than a high aspect multi strut kite. They flap when fully depowered at the top of their wind range and they flap in sharp turns but again that differs some flap more than others. Yes they do turn faster than a foil kite of the same size. The light weight a low aspect shape makes them drift well when going downwind on a foil but foil kites also do that very well.
All true.
But I prefer foil kites because they they stay in the air long enough for me to get back to the beach when the wind is dropping. In the very rare event that I cannot keep my foil kite in the air, I roll my kite up, lie on it on my foilboard and paddle in. Never swim in the water! If you lie on your board and paddle you will go way faster than swimming. That is a benefit of foilboards (except for the very small ones). Incidentally if you have a harness hook then undo one side so you don't damage your board with your hook.

:wink: CG
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Re: Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

Postby Osprey1 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:22 pm

I prefer single strut or Alula over foils (rode the Soul and its a great kite) because at my new home spot a drift launch and self-rescue is required due to the tightness of the launch. Also my spot is very gusty and the LEIs tend to handle the swirly winds better. But if you've got smooth winds the 10m Soul is super fun too for light winds and a big foil.
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Re: Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

Postby wvickers » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:29 am

Remember that is depends on your riding area. If it's gusty with major lulls, a foil kite might become a pain, for those occasional times it bow ties and hits the water. If you jibes are absolutely solid, and the breeze is not a lake (gusty/lulls), then a foil kite is the way to go. Also ideally have a launch site that is clean and without numerous branches for the bridles on the foil kite, even if a hyperlink.
I have an Airush 12 m Ultra. Absolutely great kite for light air foiling and easy relaunch. Works ok for Twin Tip too if needed.
My 11 m Chrono V2 UL gets me in even lower breeze and is very lofty and easy to practice tacks and jumps/tricks on foil.
Overall though, I still prefer the single strut for most conditions.
I still prefer a single strut Airush Ultra or Naish Boxer than my 9m Hyperlink. Easier turns, carving on waves, and loops. Which on some days is a lot of fun, particularly if it's windy and swell. But again, it's also really fun to go out on the hyperlink and loft some jumps.
With longer lines, the 9 m Hyperlink can be used in pretty light conditions with a 633 or 693 Moses wing.

I am the same weight as you. I really like my 11 m Chrono V2 but it can be a pain when it bow ties

When the wind is steady, I go out on the Chrono. Gives a feeling that you won't get on a LEI.

These choices are tough. Maybe buy both :D



Bill
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Re: Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

Postby joriws » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:09 am

There is so much BS on this thread. If you go with Sonic (aka "Sonic3") you can do miracles also on ponds.

Here is a video from small forest lake. Please read description of video, it tell how f.ex to tune your bar to kite at lull-lake.

G-maps link to "lake".
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lammi ... 23.3512354

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Re: Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

Postby Janus » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:53 am

joriws wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:09 am
There is so much BS on this thread. If you go with Sonic (aka "Sonic3") you can do miracles also on ponds.

Here is a video from small forest lake. Please read description of video, it tell how f.ex to tune your bar to kite at lull-lake.
A bit too quick reply imo, a one vid session on that lake / pond with a Sonic doesn't mean it is the best solution for that location..
I live on a smaller pond, kited there with tubes, Souls and Peak4s. By ar the best choice for my pond is the Peak4, not the most efficient kite but in the lulls it will float.. other kites will drop. The safety of that kite is also a plus.

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Re: Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

Postby joriws » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:51 am

Janus wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:53 am
joriws wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:09 am
There is so much BS on this thread. If you go with Sonic (aka "Sonic3") you can do miracles also on ponds.

Here is a video from small forest lake. Please read description of video, it tell how f.ex to tune your bar to kite at lull-lake.
A bit too quick reply imo, a one vid session on that lake / pond with a Sonic doesn't mean it is the best solution for that location..
I live on a smaller pond, kited there with tubes, Souls and Peak4s. By ar the best choice for my pond is the Peak4, not the most efficient kite but in the lulls it will float.. other kites will drop. The safety of that kite is also a plus.
I admit I wanted to be a bit provocative. Good answer by you Janus.. :)

Let's chew this a bit more. Peak4 with drift launch as video session starts with drift launching a Sonic3-13, ain't the cell tips on Peak4's (bags with no drainage behind) a problem because you would get hard to remove water in them (I know Horst's peak relaunch 69/70 times -video on Peak). Peak3 would be better if you can call Peak-*drift* launching on water "better" in any circumstance. On the video guy drift launched the Sonic to start his session from the peer, he says on FB that usually he swims to rock visible on map & video and drift launches there. I can post you another recent video on deep water Sonic3 drift launch because of wooded lake shores. Naturally Soul would do fine too, not saying that on Soul you cannot do it. I've drift launched Speed3s, Speed4s many times, so it is not a capability of latest gen foil kites and deep water drift launch video by Flysurfer is soon 20y old.

I emphasized Sonic on my message because generic term "foil kite" on topic which also unfortunately includes sponge-foilkites which suck water in. Also video is a proof (no deepfake video here), writing is cheap&easy but if you get someone to drone film your session and release a "tutorial" or tips on youtube how you can do it too, it also states that everyone can do it with well though gear and some skill which you can grow. I've snowkited on lake closed bay 200m wide and 400m in length with Speed4 8m DLX, no bowties or any problems, I just did not want to jump because of the gusts.

But in ponds with lulls like in above video, most LEI would immediately hindenburg down, aluula or not. Wave LEI maybe would drift but they are not usually performant enough (have you seen wave LEI at 17m size) to haul you on gusty low winds over water, video guy used 13m Sonic3 so you need to scale that performance requirement to riding also on wave LEI. And LEI drift launch and relaunch on those conditions would be a joke because very little surface wind because of forest around, like 15-20m trees all around lake generates wind buffer near the shore and wind shadows from trees upwing of you.

That's just my experience, but you Janus at actually water kiting at "pond" have better experience and if you prefer Peak - that is good tip for me too with drift-launch-grain-of-salt, I've Peak4 and use it on mountain twirly icy winds and they can cope everything I've put my Peak against.
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Re: Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

Postby cor » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:39 pm

wvickers wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:29 am
Remember that is depends on your riding area. If it's gusty with major lulls, a foil kite might become a pain, for those occasional times it bow ties and hits the water. If you jibes are absolutely solid, and the breeze is not a lake (gusty/lulls), then a foil kite is the way to go.
I keep hearing that but my experience is the opposite and I ride on gusty lakes only. I own a Soul 10M and it handles gusts and lulls better than any LEI i´ve ever flown, including the UFO I´ve demoed this weekend. Modern foilkites also will relaunch in winds where no LEI can relaunch. (in deep water of course). We had a very telling situation this sunday at the lake. Wind was between 7 to 10 knots with lulls. Around 15 people on the water, half of them on lightwind LEIs and the other half on foilkites. When the wind dropped even more, almost all LEIs hindenburged, unable to relaunch and they had to swim in. Most of the guys with foil kites couldn´t get up riding anymore, but they did make it to the shore without dropping the kite.

What you are saying was true a few years ago where foil kites would just soak water and you would not be able to relaunch no matter what. It´s different now.

Don´t get me wrong, I am not saying that everyone should get a foil kite or that they are way better in everything, but in my opinion, it does not depend mainly on the "riding area" but more on the style you are riding:
LEI=Way more agile, best for freeride and gybing.
Foil= go fast and lofty jumps.
Last edited by cor on Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

Postby Janus » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:29 pm

joriws wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:51 am

That's just my experience, but you Janus at actually water kiting at "pond" have better experience and if you prefer Peak - that is good tip for me too with drift-launch-grain-of-salt, I've Peak4 and use it on mountain twirly icy winds and they can cope everything I've put my Peak against.
Well even the Peak4 had some issues on my pond.. it can collaps and drop.. :lol:
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Re: Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

Postby jumptheshark » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:28 pm

joriws wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:51 am

Let's chew this a bit more. Peak4 with drift launch as video session starts with drift launching a Sonic3-13, ain't the cell tips on Peak4's (bags with no drainage behind) a problem because you would get hard to remove water in them (I know Horst's peak relaunch 69/70 times -video on Peak). Peak3 would be better if you can call Peak-*drift* launching on water "better" in any circumstance. On the video guy drift launched the Sonic to start his session from the peer, he says on FB that usually he swims to rock visible on map & video and drift launches there. I can post you another recent video on deep water Sonic3 drift launch because of wooded lake shores. Naturally Soul would do fine too, not saying that on Soul you cannot do it. I've drift launched Speed3s, Speed4s many times, so it is not a capability of latest gen foil kites and deep water drift launch video by Flysurfer is soon 20y old.

Tip cells have drainage at the rear of the cell. I have grown very confident in drift launching Peak4. I think its likely more reliable than drift launching closed cell foils and LEI kites alike. The kite is glued to the water while it drifts and is far less prone to slack line flip/roll/tangle. The cupped but open LE is pretty much the perfect little sail in anything over 11 knots to pull the kite downwind and drag the rest of the canopy up along the surface keeping both the canopy and the bridle near the surface and clear, yet it will never lift off prematurely. Have now done this in anything from 11 to 20 knots of wind and was so relieved to realize that the windier the better. This applies to relaunch as well.

This was a tip mentioned by someone else in the Peak thread that I was trial and erroring my way toward at the time. Thanks!

Post crash with the kite completely wet and flat on the water. If the kite is LE down, lift a rear line to get the canopy to catch and fill. Once up in shape, tension one rear line to get the kite to rotate. If it relaunches great, if not it will flop onto its back. *** immediately slack line the kite and let it drift a meter or two downwind. The leading edge will do its thing and the whole LE will efface the wind and basically position itself for easy launch. Pull the fronts, let the tips drain and voila.

Learning the techniques for the Peak is no harder than learning the technique for using a 5th line on a C kite.

As to twitchy, gusty, holey wind. Nothing copes better than the Peak.
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Re: Feeling in foiling: 1 strut kite vs foil kite

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:41 am

joriws wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:09 am
There is so much BS on this thread. If you go with Sonic (aka "Sonic3") you can do miracles also on ponds.

Here is a video from small forest lake. Please read description of video, it tell how f.ex to tune your bar to kite at lull-lake.

G-maps link to "lake".
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lammi ... 23.3512354

What a great little clip. I'd totally kite that lake. My airs are smaller.


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