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Lightwind gybing

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bragnouff
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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby bragnouff » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:48 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:29 pm
I haven't been downlooping because I have years of experience not downlooping & there are so many variables in learning to foil that eliminating some of them is helpful.
I guess I'm on the opposite camp, I probably downloop more often than not, be it on TT, surfboard, buggy, and of course snowkiting. It seems more efficient in almost every possible way. At the end of the day, do what feels the more natural to you.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Flyboy » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:33 am

bragnouff wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:48 pm
Flyboy wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:29 pm
I haven't been downlooping because I have years of experience not downlooping & there are so many variables in learning to foil that eliminating some of them is helpful.
I guess I'm on the opposite camp, I probably downloop more often than not, be it on TT, surfboard, buggy, and of course snowkiting. It seems more efficient in almost every possible way. At the end of the day, do what feels the more natural to you.
That's interesting - surely it's much more common not to downloop gybe? I haven't used a TT in years, but on my SB I'm typically keeping the kite low as it turns & I carve hard through the power zone. I don't understand how you could do that downlooping? I guess you start higher & then low to the water as it downloops?

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby bragnouff » Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:04 am

I don't really analyze it, it just depends, but going heel to toe on an incoming wave face, downlooping lets you deal with the steering of the kite with your front hand all the way, freeing the back hand, whereas with a normal kite turn, you'd crank the bar with the back hand, then use the other hand to countersteer, and you'd then be able to free the ex-back hand to go dig in the water inside the turn.
I do both, it depends somehow on the angle of the wind, on the shape of the wave. When doing toe to heel as a transition in the inside, it's mostly downloop as you get a longer powerstroke out of the turn and accelerating more, with the kite low and already powered.
Kite low on entry vs low on exit, I guess it's a matter of choice. With modern kites that turn well, there's no need to bring them up very high before downlooping. (in light winds on foil, to go back to the topic, sometimes yes, that helps).
My first downloops and kiteloops were with a 15.1 F-One Mach1 back in 2003, and for sure you had to make sure there was enough room for the kite to complete the turn. This is not really an issue anymore with modern 9m and below! And bringing them up at 10 o'clock if needed only takes a split second.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:34 am

Flyboy wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:33 am
bragnouff wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:48 pm
Flyboy wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:29 pm
I haven't been downlooping because I have years of experience not downlooping & there are so many variables in learning to foil that eliminating some of them is helpful.
I guess I'm on the opposite camp, I probably downloop more often than not, be it on TT, surfboard, buggy, and of course snowkiting. It seems more efficient in almost every possible way. At the end of the day, do what feels the more natural to you.
That's interesting - surely it's much more common not to downloop gybe? I haven't used a TT in years, but on my SB I'm typically keeping the kite low as it turns & I carve hard through the power zone. I don't understand how you could do that downlooping? I guess you start higher & then low to the water as it downloops?
Maybe it's only more common among us free-ride foilers? If you're not relying on the lift of the kite to change feet, and just ride the board into the new tack and stay on your toes...

It all depends on the situation for me -- it's a lot easier to keep the kite flying with down loops, so yeah, you have to start "up" enough for it to complete the loop. If I'm "wave riding" and the kite's not really powered in the wind, I down loop more, or "figure 8" with up and down loops as I "cut" back n' forth.

If I up loop, then the kite tends to pivot on the spot then accelerate to the edge, and relative to me it's usually closer to the edge already so if I'm not getting around quickly it's going to splash down.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:36 pm

From my experience, downloping avantages depends on your jibe type.

The more deep angle downwind you ride when you initiate your jibe (race style), the more advantage a downloop has.
If you point upwind when you start to jibe (freestyle/wave style), like a "pivot jibe" at low speed, then driving your kite upward through the zenith is more easy to avoid slack lines. Both are possible in light wind. Pointing Upwind limits the risk of the kite in the water for beginners in marginal winds IMO.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby alowishus » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:32 am

I almost always downloop going into a gybe, after switching feet, or not, even when quite powered up as I love the acceleration carving around. I generally try and ride on the underpowered side though.

In really light winds, as mentioned above by others, it's super important to keep the kite flying as fast as possible to maintain line tension, looping in whatever direction as required and as suits.

If not accustomed to downlooping when gybing, this is no problem, you just need to redirect to the other side hard, and if wind is really light, continue the redirection into a loop to generate power and keep tension in the other direction. Wider loops generate more power, which can be more effective with longer lines, and will want to avoid small loops.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Flyboy » Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:19 am

alowishus wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:32 am
I almost always downloop going into a gybe, after switching feet, or not, even when quite powered up as I love the acceleration carving around. I generally try and ride on the underpowered side though.

In really light winds, as mentioned above by others, it's super important to keep the kite flying as fast as possible to maintain line tension, looping in whatever direction as required and as suits.

If not accustomed to downlooping when gybing, this is no problem, you just need to redirect to the other side hard, and if wind is really light, continue the redirection into a loop to generate power and keep tension in the other direction. Wider loops generate more power, which can be more effective with longer lines, and will want to avoid small loops.
Yeah sure. Fly the kite fast & maintain line tension. Perhaps you're not talking about really light winds. Going into a gybe I'm holding the bar at the extreme end & pulling as as hard as I can to get the kite turning as fast as possible. The kite goes from 11 to 12 to 1 o'clock, hesitates, then starts to tumble. Often I can save it by completing the carve, heading upwind a bit & yanking hard on the other side of the bar to re-establish line tension before it hits the water. Definitely harder with the 11m than underpowered with the 8m or smaller. Downlooping (I suppose) eliminates the part where the kite has to climb through zenith, which is the critical moment.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby alowishus » Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:44 am

Flyboy wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:19 am
alowishus wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:32 am
I almost always downloop going into a gybe, after switching feet, or not, even when quite powered up as I love the acceleration carving around. I generally try and ride on the underpowered side though.

In really light winds, as mentioned above by others, it's super important to keep the kite flying as fast as possible to maintain line tension, looping in whatever direction as required and as suits.

If not accustomed to downlooping when gybing, this is no problem, you just need to redirect to the other side hard, and if wind is really light, continue the redirection into a loop to generate power and keep tension in the other direction. Wider loops generate more power, which can be more effective with longer lines, and will want to avoid small loops.
Yeah sure. Fly the kite fast & maintain line tension. Perhaps you're not talking about really light winds. Going into a gybe I'm holding the bar at the extreme end & pulling as as hard as I can to get the kite turning as fast as possible. The kite goes from 11 to 12 to 1 o'clock, hesitates, then starts to tumble. Often I can save it by completing the carve, heading upwind a bit & yanking hard on the other side of the bar to re-establish line tension before it hits the water. Definitely harder with the 11m than underpowered with the 8m or smaller. Downlooping (I suppose) eliminates the part where the kite has to climb through zenith, which is the critical moment.
Hey Flyboy,
Sorry, I just read you were using a 3 strut 11m kite.
My biggest kite is a 9m single strut and I can foil in that 8-10 knot zone, but have to work the kite and it can be touch and go at times.
I'm 75kg and have a 1000cm2 wing that has good low end.
In these winds, the kite, which is very light, will barely hang in the air at 45 deg when stationary, so the wind is really light. It it can just hang there at that position, I can foil. If the kite gets wet, it's all over!
If I were you I'd consider ditching your 3 strut and finding a really light bigger kite if you really want one.
You're probably entering into foil kite territory though imo.
But yeah, to get the looping speed I'm talking about you may need a smaller kite than an 11.
I used to have a 3 strut 12m but found it next to useless in really light winds.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:27 am

Flyboy, I think you are "choking" the kite in a different way than normally...

You say you pull the bar hard at the far end of it?

Sounds wrong, as even with a 15 m2 foil kite (or a 12 m2 tubekite, no difference) on 30 m lines, I don't "yank" the kite around when flown up.
In marginal wind that is...

You should gently fly the kite up from kite low, when you are at an upwind board coarse, and "feel" the kite, so it stays lit with tight lines while you carve around.
It should be carried out in sync, takes some time to learn when really low wind, but suddenly you can do it.
The kite should not be flying to the new side, when you start the carve, then it will all go wrong - the kite should be on its way up when you initiate and make the first part of the carve, and then the kite should be slightly on its way down from 12 when you go out of the carve to the new tack.

If you pull really hard, I think you lose control of your sheeting angle, besides the kite will be less efficient when torn around hard so also lose speed and line tension.
And you might also turn the kite too much around BEFORE you carve, which will lead to a kite hanging on slack lines and tumbling down (when you carve "after" the kite).

You might be choking the kite in two different ways, both sheeting and turning hard, without knowing, and also turn the kite too early, is my guess :roll:

8) Peter


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