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Lightwind gybing

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:04 am

But you can, no matter how far forward it flies.

All about timing, and not too short lines :thumb:

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby OzBungy » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:49 am

Flyboy wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:28 pm
... It's very hard to keep the kite from stalling during the gybe. ...
What do you mean "stalling"? There's lots of ways to stall a kite. What exactly are you doing and when is the kite stalling? It's impossible to give sensible specific advice if we don't know how you're stalling your kite.

My advice to everybody for everything is to get better at foiling. Stop doing the wrong thing that is stalling your kite and do more of the right stuff that avoids a stall. It's all pretty simple but you have to get past the "this is how you do it" thing.

Longer lines and stuff can help. They position the kite deeper in the window and give it a touch more drift and power to work with.

Not a fan of downloops in light wind. If you get it wrong your kite is already on its way into the drink. If you can downloop your kite then you can send it over the top. But, a downloop can be essential to rescue a failed gybe. You have to be able to do them almost by reflex in that case.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby bigtone667 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:45 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:51 am
TheJoe wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:30 am
I find it easier to downloop the kite like everyone else is saying. But since your moving the kite overhead are you carving hard upwind before initiating the downwind turn of the board? This is important to place kite deeper in the wind window so it does not stall out by slacking out mid jibe.

I downloop most of the time. I only go over head with kite when I'm really powered up. I'm all so on a 3 strut kite but it is the new North Reach and the kite is very light in the air.
It's about keeping enough tension in the lines. Bear upwind as much as you can without killing speed, but keeping the kite loaded.
And jibe/gybe before the downloop.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby MattyM » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:11 pm

Yes as above a downloop is the best way of doing it.

Otherwise, steer the kite to the other side as quickly as you can, then carve round hard after it.

In lighter winds you'll lose steering line tension once you bear away as the kite can't drift quickly enough, hence get the kite to face the new direction before you do so. Carving round after the kite is positioned means that it doesn't matter if your lines go slack (briefly anyway), as the kite is already pointing in the correct direction. Once you harden up on the new reach you'll tension the lines again. I'm in the process of doing this in the pic below.
MDM_4328-profile.jpg

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Flyboy » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:43 pm

Interesting variety of (sometimes conflicting) advice. My observation from personal experience is that foiling manoeuvres require the correct combination of balance, carving & kite movement. This is especially the case in light wind. I generally use an 8m or 6m wave kite. If I can foil with the 8m then gybing isn't a problem, even if I am a bit underpowered, as the kite turns fast enough that unless I really mess things up it will come around OK. In light wind - winds in which it is tricky, or impossible, to water launch the kite - I'm using an 11m kite. If everything goes well, the kite will (just) make it over zenith & collapse in such a way that I can reestablish line tension on the new tack before it goes into the water.

My take away from the comments is that:

1) I should be trying to downloop the kite

2) Carve more upwind before initiating the gybe

3) Per PF, try longer lines - I have been using only 23 m lines. Might stick on my 3m extensions & see what effect that has. The other day I tried a short bar with 20m lines & really noticed how much less power it gave me.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:53 pm

Agree with OzBungy, I dont understand either what you mean with "stalling"???

Where and when?

You write it "collapses" - tube kites can not collapse, unless you do something horribly wrong and too low pressure.
Or are you not talking about stalling, but about hindenburging because you underfly the kite with slack lines?

Regarding line lengths - I have no idea how it works for downloops, as I only downloop when going downwind, never when jibing.
This is because I cant and dont change feet before the jibe, I love doing surf jibes leaning into the turn, also when only 5-6 knots of wind with big kites, so flying the kite up and around works by far the best and no risk of going down.
Here longer lines extends the pull and tight lines for much longer :thumb:

Downloops, someone else must answer whether better or not the same advantage.

The other advantage with longer lines, is the ability to save a kite about to go down, you can always downloop it around fast - NOT possible with short lines, where you are in for a swim to shore, if the kite gets too low in a lull, or any time.

If I am just carving back and forth for fun, no jibing, I often downloop.

But not possible if I want to make a surf jibe, as if I downloop, the kite has so much speed and power on the way out of the turn, that I can not change feet.
Also, very impractical, as I lose a lot of unnecessary ground.

Of course, I could ride toeside for a while after the turn, and slowly bring the kite up and head upwind to lose speed and power, and THEN change feet, but what a lousy feeling, like you have lost it and just doing it because you have to :roll:

Still, what/when is your kite stalling precisely?

Important for us, to understand the issue here :wink:

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:00 pm

Light wind maneuvers require first and foremost the ability to combine your board movements with kite movements to keep everything powered up. Any kind of slack lines, or even sometimes falling out of your apparent-wind generating speed can cause things to go poorly.

On the equipment I ride (race foil, high aspect foil kites) you want to be going fast in light wind so you have lots of apparent wind and power in your kite, good momentum as you begin the maneuver, and then a solid timing to get everything in the right place at the right time without slacking your lines.

With the gear I ride, the best way to do this is a "racing" gybe where you bring the kite high, sheet-in to go weightless, switch feet, then ride away while initiating a downloop. You can do that with any equipment, it's just a bit different style than some are used to. In light wind, I'd recommend any style maneuver that maximizes your speed and line tension.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:19 pm

Very interesting, and conflicting views, almost funny, but true :naughty:

As in my experience, you should keep your speed low instead, head a lot upwind, and carve around using the kite and longer lines to pull all the way around when you fly the kite up, keeping the speed low so you can carve in a lot tighter arc.

Essential for the ability to keep lines tight, that you dont go too fast and too big radius.

If you fly the kite up, and go fast to keep line tension, before a downloop - it is a completely different maneuvre in every way.
both works great, just completely opposite in many ways, and IMO you lose a lot more ground this way, but if not going upwind it does not matter of course.

Those doing both types of turns know what I mean, for those having issues with light wind jibing (marginal wind I assume, less than 8 knots), it can be difficult to understand indeed :-?

One can say, that with a race jibe and short lines you use the board and kites apparent wind generation to keep lines tight when downlooping, but you also lose upwind ground a lot more.
Whereas with longer lines and flying up and around, you use the speed of the kite to keep lines tight and powered, instead of using board speed.
Typically in conjunction with much bigger wings, as opposed to much faster race wings.
Giving a lot tighter radius also.

Two completely opposite ways IMO, but both works great for what you want to do :thumb:

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby OzBungy » Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:32 am

The fundamental requirement for a kite to fly and generate power is to have the kite in the wind window and have tension on the lines. You can do that by flying the kite into the window, having longer lines which enlarges the apparent size of the window, or carving the board upwind to change your angle to the kite and change the apparent wind window. Shorter lines can be good because you can turn the kite faster back into the window.

You also need to avoid riding downwind and wasting power and losing tension on the lines. How you achieve all that is up to you and the circumstances.

I like to carve as far upwind as I can. As the board starts to lose speed I do a pivot gybe and send the kite. I prefer an up turn for safety and reliability. If I can feel it going wrong I often reverse the up turn into a down turn. A down turn can save a failed gybe and it can be nice on exit to have the kite chasing the board through the power zone.

You need to have the freedom of movement and the ability to feel what is happening. Adopting that one special way of doing a gybe is doomed to failure. You become a passenger and unable to adapt to changing situations.

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Re: Lightwind gybing

Postby Flyboy » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:29 pm

No - the kite doesn't "collapse" due to under inflation. It Hindenbergs ... which is ironic, because the Hindenberg didn't Hindenberg it collapsed. :-?

I haven't been downlooping because I have years of experience not downlooping & there are so many variables in learning to foil that eliminating some of them is helpful. I assume there is a significant difference in technique using a race foil & high aspect foil kites compared to a lower aspect wing & 3 strut tube kites?

Generally, I any flying my 8m or 6m kite when I'm foiling. Even when underpowered on them it's usually not too hard to complete the gybe because they turn much faster. I'll only use my 11m when it's blowing in the lower end of the 8 - 12 knots range. A successful gybe in those winds requires the timing of the carve & the kite movement to be perfectly co-ordinated. Quite often the kite will go to zenith & then start to Hindenberg. Saving it requires carving back upwind to reestablish line tension & doing everything I can to yank the kite around before it hits the water.

The impressive thing (to me) about my Gong MPro foil is it allows me to stall completely for a couple of seconds & still ride away as the kite regains pull. It's a bit nerve wracking, however, as failure in those conditions can mean swimming. I'm assuming downlooping will work better in that situation, but perhaps I should also try flying the 11m with line extensions - something that I haven't tried yet.


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