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Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

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azoele
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Re: Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

Postby azoele » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:21 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:11 am
Agree with you, except for "So: a Peak will give you the absolute lowest wind foilability (together with a large, efficient foil)" which is not true.

You can start earlier with an UL race or race like kite, definitely.

But a lot more risky indeed :naughty:

8) Peter
thanks for correcting Peter!
I had no idea it was possible to scrape even more the low end, it already seemed quite ridiculus for me as it is :)

What kind of kite (and foil) would be needed to do the extra step, and at what risks?

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Re: Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

Postby azoele » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 am

Tomlutz wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:55 am
azoele wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:40 pm
...
... Peaks sink a meter or more below the surface, where they can get caught in currents leading away from the beach. Not funny at all.

So: a Peak will give you the absolute lowest wind foilability (together with a large, efficient foil), it will never fall by itself, and it's a pleasure to use. ...
Agreed only mostly:

- A Peak can be brought back to surface quite easily by beginning in the middle of the leading edge. You might want to wrap the lines on the bar to prevent getting entangled (sometimes I am too lazy even for this if I am just positioning it for relaunch)
- Even if not asked, for the lightest winds below 6 knots even a Peak 13 will fail (at least for going upwind). For this you need an ultralight race kite, but then we are talking about a different price level

- Tom
Thanks, Tom, very useful information.
I will try your method next time I crash the kite in the water :thumb:
I always wrap the lines, but I still end up tangled by the "hair lines" of the canopy every single time with the 13m, and then, my fear is that of losing the foil while I'm trying to recover the kite: the foil moves away, and I can't reach it anymore because the submerged kite is an incredibly effective "anchor"...

Would you share a suggestion on how do you ever relaunch them?
I had no idea that was even possible, after it submerged (I only relaunched them a couple of times, in stronger winds; in marginal winds, it was a no go... once I had 3/4 of the 13m in the air, but a tip was filled with water, and despite backing as furiously as I could with my legs kicking, the kite wouldn't free itself, and eventually collapsed again...).
The safer I can make the Peaks, the more I'll feel at ease anjoying them, so thanks!

P.s.
as also answered to Peter, I had no idea one could use a UL race kite to extract even a bit more bottom end. The Peak's performance seemed incredible to me as is (and I have never seen a UL – or normal – race kite where I foil... only Souls in various sizes, which stall much earlier than Peaks in very light breezes).
Thanks again.

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Re: Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

Postby Tomlutz » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:22 am

azoele wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 am

I always wrap the lines, but I still end up tangled by the "hair lines" of the canopy every single time with the 13m, and then, my fear is that of losing the foil while I'm trying to recover the kite: the foil moves away, and I can't reach it anymore because the submerged kite is an incredibly effective "anchor"...

Would you share a suggestion on how do you ever relaunch them?
I had no idea that was even possible, after it submerged (I only relaunched them a couple of times, in stronger winds; in marginal winds, it was a no go...

as also answered to Peter, I had no idea one could use a UL race kite to extract even a bit more bottom end. The Peak's performance seemed incredible to me as is (and I have never seen a UL – or normal – race kite where I foil... only Souls in various sizes, which stall much earlier than Peaks in very light breezes).
I also get entangled very often - annoying. One way to prevent this is swimming in a big round circle around the kite. As I anyway need to reach the kite from behind, this worked for me.

In my opinion it is not possible to launch the Peak from the water in light wind. I need at least 10 or 11 knots. As I would usually not use the Peak 13m in such winds, the sad reality is that I can't launch the Peak 13 from the water in the conditions I need it.

I have seen lot of kiters with ultralight race kites (13 or 15m depending on the weight of the rider) who still ride in 3 knots, or dash through lulls where there is virtually no wind at all (also high performance race foils). I am a beginner and don't feel ready for such kites, if ever I want to spend the money for it (e.g. more than 3000 EUR for a UL Ozone Chrono). For under 5 knots I have a mid AR Concept Air Pulsion 18m, but need 4 knots.

With the Peak 13 I need at least 5 knots, and 6 or 7 knots to go upwind. Souls are generally too heavy and slow turning for winds below 5 knots.

Tom

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Re: Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

Postby joriws » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:32 am

azoele wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:40 pm
If by mistake you get your kite in the water in light wind, you *must* be sure you'll be able to swim back: the 11m, and even more so the 13m, are large kites, and once in the water they get incredibly heavy.
Why Peak4 would get incredible heavy on water? There are just *two* tip closed cells which will collect water but which you can easily drain? You can roll it up, lift from LE above water, S-bend it above water and all water will flush out => and the kite will weight the same under one 1kg (2lbs or something) when you swim home.
azoele wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:40 pm
and more than once I got to the point of almost unhooking from the kite (even thought it would have meant losing it) because after a while, Peaks sink a meter or more below the surface, where they can get caught in currents leading away from the beach.
How can you sink peak over one meter. Let me explain the basic physics. If Peak4 fabric is less dense than water it will float. And you can floating drift launch Peak4 meaning fabric is less dense than the water. So your technique must be totally wrong if you can make Peak4 fly as underwater wing..

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Re: Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:52 am

True, it wont sink.

But of course, if you pull the lines tight you can "dive" it somewhat down.

Otherwise it will float, as stated.

It wont float on top of the water like air filled double skins, no, so it feels like it has sunk, agree with that, the one time I tested if I could swim an 8 m2 ashore - VERY difficult.
Will roll it up the next time.

But when I got to the low water, I could put the kite on its back and relaunch, and dry the kite.

Wind had changed from 9 knots to almost zero, and then came back again a bit later.


To azoele: If you use a big 13 or 15 m2 or more, UL racekite, maybe also longer lines, you can go somewhat lower than with a Peak4.

Of course the Peak4 can hang in the lowest wind, but it doesnt help if not sufficient powerspike to get up, and not sufficient apparent wind power once up.

You can use a big wing for this, but a fast wing can sometimes be just as good, a bit more difficult to get up, but once up flying somewhat faster you got a lot more power to ride through lulls, than with the big slower wing.

Downsides are, they can fold the tips, they cost 3 times as much, generally a lot more difficult to fly in extreme marginal wind, and packdowns takes almost forever, compared.

Whereas the Peak4 is a no brainer easy kite, it just hangs, and superfast to start and pack down, eventhough on cost of extreme marginal low end, as not the same power when flown, as the racekites.

8) Peter

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Re: Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

Postby azoele » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:21 pm

Thanks, Tom,

I'll try to swim in a larger circle.
Although I need to keep the foil with me all the times, or it will just disappear :(

For now, I'm satisfied of the light wind performance... and have absolutely zero money left for a Pulsion 18m or a Chrono UL after 24 months of crazy expenditures!!! (I started kiting 2 years ago, and it's been an unbelievable money sink! :D )
Tomlutz wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:22 am
azoele wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:42 am

I always wrap the lines, but I still end up tangled by the "hair lines" of the canopy every single time with the 13m, and then, my fear is that of losing the foil while I'm trying to recover the kite: the foil moves away, and I can't reach it anymore because the submerged kite is an incredibly effective "anchor"...

Would you share a suggestion on how do you ever relaunch them?
I had no idea that was even possible, after it submerged (I only relaunched them a couple of times, in stronger winds; in marginal winds, it was a no go...

as also answered to Peter, I had no idea one could use a UL race kite to extract even a bit more bottom end. The Peak's performance seemed incredible to me as is (and I have never seen a UL – or normal – race kite where I foil... only Souls in various sizes, which stall much earlier than Peaks in very light breezes).
I also get entangled very often - annoying. One way to prevent this is swimming in a big round circle around the kite. As I anyway need to reach the kite from behind, this worked for me.

In my opinion it is not possible to launch the Peak from the water in light wind. I need at least 10 or 11 knots. As I would usually not use the Peak 13m in such winds, the sad reality is that I can't launch the Peak 13 from the water in the conditions I need it.

I have seen lot of kiters with ultralight race kites (13 or 15m depending on the weight of the rider) who still ride in 3 knots, or dash through lulls where there is virtually no wind at all (also high performance race foils). I am a beginner and don't feel ready for such kites, if ever I want to spend the money for it (e.g. more than 3000 EUR for a UL Ozone Chrono). For under 5 knots I have a mid AR Concept Air Pulsion 18m, but need 4 knots.

With the Peak 13 I need at least 5 knots, and 6 or 7 knots to go upwind. Souls are generally too heavy and slow turning for winds below 5 knots.

Tom

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Re: Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

Postby azoele » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:51 pm

joriws wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:32 am
azoele wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:40 pm
If by mistake you get your kite in the water in light wind, you *must* be sure you'll be able to swim back: the 11m, and even more so the 13m, are large kites, and once in the water they get incredibly heavy.
Why Peak4 would get incredible heavy on water? There are just *two* tip closed cells which will collect water but which you can easily drain? You can roll it up, lift from LE above water, S-bend it above water and all water will flush out => and the kite will weight the same under one 1kg (2lbs or something) when you swim home.
azoele wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:40 pm
and more than once I got to the point of almost unhooking from the kite (even thought it would have meant losing it) because after a while, Peaks sink a meter or more below the surface, where they can get caught in currents leading away from the beach.
How can you sink peak over one meter. Let me explain the basic physics. If Peak4 fabric is less dense than water it will float. And you can floating drift launch Peak4 meaning fabric is less dense than the water. So your technique must be totally wrong if you can make Peak4 fly as underwater wing..
Joris, I appreciate you're trying to help, but resent your patronizing tone, and wish you hadn't used it.

That said, I'll try to explain myself better, as I sense there's much more available that I do not know, and would sincerely like to learn it.

My Peaks (8m and 13m), and the 8m of a friend, all went under water, and all more than once.
Have no idea why it happened, given your theory of cloth being lighter than water seems convincing to me, but it happened.
The whole kite lingers 30/60cm below the water (some parts may go lower; I can grab some parts with the hand, so it's probably less than 1m), and extraction is difficult, because pulling one part or the other will move lots of water. But it most certainly does not linger gingerly under 5cm of water, that is certain. It is actually a bit of an unpleasant sight, seing it float like there's wind, but underwater, and moving slowly.
Then, when dragging a part of the kite out of the water to load it on my foil board (bit by bit), significant effort is required, because I am floating, holding the foil board in place (usually with my chest on it), and lifting a piece of the Peak which is full of water trying not to let it slip on the other side of the board.
And then, quite literally, rinse and repeat with the rest of the kite.
Just that.
Eventually I have been able to load the 13m on the foil everytime – bar once, when the foil left without me, and it was truly hard to get back to the beach, because the Peak 13m made a huge resistance. WIth the kite on the board, it's just a matter of patience until you'll corralled to the beach by small or bigger waves. Without a board, I do not want to do that again, period.

So, in my experience (personal, and personally witnessed), Peaks do not float (or they do not do it always, or forever), and when that happens, they get problematic.
A friend unhooked in moderate waves after a crash where he lost his foil, a bit away from the beach, because he felt pulled by the kite in the waves, and the kite was also submerging. He thought it wise to unhook and recover the foil to have a "barge", and recover the 8m later.
The kite+bar were never recovered, they were invisible from the surface for the many kiter friends who tried; it never resurfaced, as much as I (we know).

So, I am very, very weary of this fact, and always am super careful to stay when I have reasonable expectation of swimming back, and always, always, grab my foil if I see there's no chance to relaunch the Peak, so I have a barge to hold myself and load the kite on to.

Just my experience, of course, and that of friends frequenting my spot.

Am honestly very happy for all the others that never see their Peaks sink, as, with big sizes, it is a significant hassle, and certain to ruin the mood for the entire 40/60 minutes it might need to return to the spot, and for the time needed afterwards to untangle the unholy mess of the lines! :roll:
Still, I remain convinced that it is a kite more suited to advanced kiters (and I am not), and if not, then extra care is certainly needed.

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Re: Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

Postby azoele » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:57 pm

Thanks, Peter.

I have this preference for the Peak (money aside) because it stays up in lulls, and it can be recovered easily in near-crashes, when you find yourself in the water and looking see the kite is at the egde of the window, almost touching the water.

My Ultra crashed like this many times, because there was no space for a downloop...
That, and I feel more serene (less prone to anger outbursts) at the thought of bodydragging or even foot-kicking my way back with the kite in the air, rather than thinking I'll be collecting a kite from the water :D
Been there too many times as a beginner trying too difficult winds (light) for me, and have reached the point of non return :D

As to sinking... Joris' comment, and now yours, are almost making me doubt of myself... :roll: :wink:
But I remember vividly the occasions, so I stand convinced of my mental sanity :D
It happened me (more than once), and a friend lost a 8m due to this.
Maybe water salinity? :roll:

Just joking: every help and comment I do appreciate, there's just soo much to learn, so thank you :thumb:
Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:52 am
True, it wont sink.

But of course, if you pull the lines tight you can "dive" it somewhat down.

Otherwise it will float, as stated.

It wont float on top of the water like air filled double skins, no, so it feels like it has sunk, agree with that, the one time I tested if I could swim an 8 m2 ashore - VERY difficult.
Will roll it up the next time.

But when I got to the low water, I could put the kite on its back and relaunch, and dry the kite.

Wind had changed from 9 knots to almost zero, and then came back again a bit later.


To azoele: If you use a big 13 or 15 m2 or more, UL racekite, maybe also longer lines, you can go somewhat lower than with a Peak4.

Of course the Peak4 can hang in the lowest wind, but it doesnt help if not sufficient powerspike to get up, and not sufficient apparent wind power once up.

You can use a big wing for this, but a fast wing can sometimes be just as good, a bit more difficult to get up, but once up flying somewhat faster you got a lot more power to ride through lulls, than with the big slower wing.

Downsides are, they can fold the tips, they cost 3 times as much, generally a lot more difficult to fly in extreme marginal wind, and packdowns takes almost forever, compared.

Whereas the Peak4 is a no brainer easy kite, it just hangs, and superfast to start and pack down, eventhough on cost of extreme marginal low end, as not the same power when flown, as the racekites.

8) Peter

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Re: Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

Postby grigorib » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:52 pm

I was debating the Peak but few people who own/ride them persuaded me that regardless how neat and cool it is...
1. It’s not a lightwind kite (even though it flies in barely any wind)
2. Swim-ins suck bad and they happen

I tried foiling with 9m Peak last June (before above feedback) and decided that it’s not a solution for LW and would be not a wise choice to buy one.

Got 9m UFO instead

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Re: Hydrofoil low end (~7-11knots)

Postby Mossy 757 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:42 pm

OzBungy wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:59 am
I wouldn't recommend a foil kite to anybody. That's a choice you should make for yourself after having done your own research and thinking it through for yourself.

For most of us, as has been said, a lightweight LEI about 12m should be ample. The advantage of the LEI is simple. It turns faster, and it floats when you drop it. You will drop it. Be prepared to self rescue. It's kind of fun.

The other things to consider for stupid light wind riding are, I have a 60cm bar with a home made long travel trimming system. With 45cm of chicken loop travel and 50cm of trimmer travel I always rig for maximum power and just pull more and more trimmer as the wind increases (which it usually does on lightwind days). The only downside is a lot of leech fluttering when the wind is very strong.

I also have a 155cm board from when I was a new foiler. That board is very forgiving of touchdowns and surface riding and slow starts and badly timed water starts.

I have experimented with large surf foils (1500cm). They tend to get over powered in the water start. A 1000cm foil gets going just as early and doesn't buck when you water start.
What foil kites do you have experience on? I would argue that a tube kite is inherently mismatched to the concept of hydrofoiling, hence why all these brands have had to come out with "foil-specific" tube kites that, wouldn't you know it, seem to pursue some of the same light-weight/higher AR attributes of foil kites...


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