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Loss of Lift

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BWD
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Re: Loss of Lift

Postby BWD » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:38 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:15 pm
I've noticed that at some angles when chop breaks onto the mast, you can get a loss of lift like air sucked down the mast.
Definitely can happen in some water conditions. Especially if you are doing any fast moves or putting sideways pressure on the mast.
Also if you try to ride the foil with exaggerated leeway angle, you can bring on ventilation in flat water even. Think “off the lip,” “slash” turns, skids, etc.

No doubt seaweed or grass can do it too.

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Re: Loss of Lift

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:55 pm

I remember when trying to work my way offshore in bigger conditions I would often kind of surface grind my way out past the white wash and then foil straight into the swell. Often I would make it past the steep stuff only to completely bail in a "trip over the front" sort of way when my foil would just drop out from under me. Fixed it by traversing the peaks at more of an angle. Have also had the sudden drop of the foil and trip over the front while bombing straight down wind and over the back of swell. I still think many of those were not breeches, but the foil wing getting into a bit of an under water roller set up by the swell that robs the wing of all its lift and drops you. Could be wrong, but Ive sort of figured out how to keep the wing from dropping when heading staring over the back of swell going downwind by un and re weighting just as you crest and drop into the trough.

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Re: Loss of Lift

Postby Kitetwin-1 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:03 am

I have a 633 and 91cm mast, I have had this many times when well powered, flat water wing well submerged, sure is a face slapper. Love the wing, I don’t find it a big issue.

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Re: Loss of Lift

Postby geokite » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:41 am

And the winner for the most turbulent water we will cross is from another foil, or your own if you are going in circles. Amazing how long that turbulence lasts in the water.

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Re: Loss of Lift

Postby Foil » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:35 am

Double post :oops:
Last edited by Foil on Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Loss of Lift

Postby Foil » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:38 am

Definitely sounds like picking up seaweed, smooth fast rinding then boom! Splash,
Could also be a wing front edge with damage that causes this sudden let go crash as well
Dirty greasy mast and wings shows up as bad stability issues at low speed leading to uncontrollable wipe outs at lower speeds than expected,or just bad vibes and wobbley feeling limiting top speed which improves by slowing down,
Turbulence is not a big issue on the 633 just slow down and unweight the wing a little and sail though it, even really bad turbulence caused by jet skis or small power boats,
white water between waves is not much of a problem either, just unweight the wing and slow down a little, get a good foot massage from white water as it feels like sailing over marballs,

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Re: Loss of Lift

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:04 am

Foil wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:38 am
Definitely sounds like picking up seaweed, smooth fast rinding then boom! Splash,
Could also be a wing front edge with damage that causes this sudden let go crash as well
Dirty greasy mast and wings shows up as bad stability issues at low speed leading to uncontrollable wipe outs at lower speeds than expected,or just bad vibes and wobbley feeling limiting top speed which improves by slowing down,
Turbulence is not a big issue on the 633 just slow down and unweight the wing a little and sail though it, even really bad turbulence caused by jet skis or small power boats,
white water between waves is not much of a problem either, just unweight the wing and slow down a little, get a good foot massage from white water as it feels like sailing over marballs,

Agree fully (again) with Foil, it is not water turbulence, the 633 and similar wings can actually ride through the most horrible turbulence like when passing a few meters away from the rear of a power boat, or similar - yes you feel the "wobble" all over, but the wings just ride through, dont stall when there isnt a massive amount of air involved.

Seaweed on the LE of the wing could very likely be the reason indeed, and you will never know, as its usually gone when you have crashed :rollgrin:

Easier with the seagrass on the mast, it sticks for a long time after you have jumped off (or crashed almost deliberately) - but it does not lead to a crash, it just slows you down so you get pi.... and have to jump off to free the sea(grass) :naughty:

8) Peter

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Re: Loss of Lift

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:53 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:55 pm
I remember when trying to work my way offshore in bigger conditions I would often kind of surface grind my way out past the white wash and then foil straight into the swell. Often I would make it past the steep stuff only to completely bail in a "trip over the front" sort of way when my foil would just drop out from under me. Fixed it by traversing the peaks at more of an angle. Have also had the sudden drop of the foil and trip over the front while bombing straight down wind and over the back of swell. I still think many of those were not breeches, but the foil wing getting into a bit of an under water roller set up by the swell that robs the wing of all its lift and drops you. Could be wrong, but Ive sort of figured out how to keep the wing from dropping when heading staring over the back of swell going downwind by un and re weighting just as you crest and drop into the trough.
Caught in the suck, I reckon.

If you watch the underwater footage of waves breaking, there's like a spinning barrel of energy there under the wave. Doesn't matter when you're on the surface, but with the foil under the water ...

With the foil too deep, you can ride the wing under the barrel and it'll push it down.

And going straight over the wave, my theory is you drop the wing off the barrel and then it pushes up the stab and upsets your lift.

Or something like that. Perhaps I'm imagining things :D

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Re: Loss of Lift

Postby Flyboy » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:41 pm

Seaweed? it's certainly possible - there's no question it happens. However, consider how many times you "unexpectedly" crash when you're in the early stages of foiling. Was there a lot more seaweed at that time?

I think there's often turbulence under the water. With experience you learn to adjust to the turbulence so you don't crash. Occasionally, even with experienced foilers, there is a degree of unexpected turbulence that you are unable to adjust to & you crash.

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Re: Loss of Lift

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:34 pm

Very true, don't worry, it will dissappear when you gain more experience :thumb:

8) Peter


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