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How long is too long

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sonny2727
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How long is too long

Postby sonny2727 » Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:02 pm

Hey Guys
Does size matter :) ...anyway I've been using Moses 111 mast most of the time from 10 knots to 30 knots and love it. It just flies over chop and can edge hard, jump well..light..cheap..so I'm wondering if people have tried longer masts? Like anything there is a point where negatives outweigh ..like weight, water start, feel..
So far i've tried 60cm, 90cm, 95cm and 111cm and by far prefer the longer mast on race wings..haven't tried this on 633 yet but i can see if you are into wave riding in 30knots with a tiny kite this might work. Right now I want to optimize gear so i can be jumping on a hydrofoil from 10knots to 40knots...the beauty of hydrofoiling is everyone can find something :)
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airsail (Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:43 pm)
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Re: How long is too long

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:53 pm

I dont know...

Racers seem to go 110 to 115 max, so could be a good indication that longer is no good.

For waveriding and general fun, it seems 90 to 95 cm are the most used, and 100 cm if very choppy maybe - shorter is only used by very few, or if the brand has stifness issues with normal mast lengths, or for those having some reminiscent from surf foil IMO.

8) Peter
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sonny2727 (Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:35 am)
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davesails7
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Re: How long is too long

Postby davesails7 » Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:05 am

Seems that above 115 cm the loss of stiffness starts to outweighs the benefits
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sonny2727 (Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:35 am)
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Re: How long is too long

Postby Foil » Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:47 am

The freeride guys who I have known to own the 111 moses mast either have sold them on or have offered them for sale, I did consider one but after holding one up against my 101 moses to compare weights(so much heavier) and the fact not one of the previous freeride owners had anything positive to say about the 111 then I lost interest in the idea,
some have gone down to 91cm as their main mast of choice, I know that is partly because better skills gained over time can then take advantage of the gains a shorter mast can offer.
there were a lot of the 111 masts for sale last year on both kitebay and the kite racing section.
maybe previous non racer owners can give some insight of the good V downsides of this mast?
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sonny2727 (Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:36 am)
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sonny2727
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Re: How long is too long

Postby sonny2727 » Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:21 pm

Foil wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:47 am
The freeride guys who I have known to own the 111 moses mast either have sold them on or have offered them for sale, I did consider one but after holding one up against my 101 moses to compare weights(so much heavier) and the fact not one of the previous freeride owners had anything positive to say about the 111 then I lost interest in the idea,
some have gone down to 91cm as their main mast of choice, I know that is partly because better skills gained over time can then take advantage of the gains a shorter mast can offer.
there were a lot of the 111 masts for sale last year on both kitebay and the kite racing section.
maybe previous non racer owners can give some insight of the good V downsides of this mast?
Lot on sales partly because Moses changed to a new race setup with tuttle connection Most of the guys who used 111 switched.... When it comes to free riding I'm interested to hear from guys who specialise in jumping as this is where I think a longer mast helps and also those who ride in 30kts...All said I think 111 is great value for money ...I know Slingshot may get their 112 mast at some point but looking at the speculated specs its going to be heavy (and strong)...One advantage I find with a long mast is you can use a wider board as the rake angle is sharper

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Re: How long is too long

Postby evan » Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:45 am

Be very careful jumping on moses masts, seen too many crack a mast just above the fuselage. On the new 106 mast they even specifically say to not jump with it!

Above 110cm there are indeed diminishing returns on Stiffness vs drag, making the mast either too flexible and hard to control or too thick and draggy. Both seems to be slower than a stiffer and thinner shorter mast when racing.


Note that the bending Stiffness comes to the length squared. So a 30% longer mast needs already 69% more Stiffness to feel the same.

sonny2727
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Re: How long is too long

Postby sonny2727 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:34 am

evan wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:45 am
Be very careful jumping on moses masts, seen too many crack a mast just above the fuselage. On the new 106 mast they even specifically say to not jump with it!

Above 110cm there are indeed diminishing returns on Stiffness vs drag, making the mast either too flexible and hard to control or too thick and draggy. Both seems to be slower than a stiffer and thinner shorter mast when racing.


Note that the bending Stiffness comes to the length squared. So a 30% longer mast needs already 69% more Stiffness to feel the same.
Thanks..Interesting info..looks like most of the racier masts and boards are not designed for jumping but at 70kg I'm hoping I don't have to change too often ..on a session 50 jumps X maybe 80 sessions a year ..
I haven't noticed any stiffness issues with 111 and it feels stiff as 90cm aluminum..heard previous Moses masts were wobbly crap but latest one much stiffer ..from 2019 for 111 Mosses uses (pavlova?) wood core and supposed to be stiffer

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Re: How long is too long

Postby dave1986 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:40 am

Can someone please weigh a 101 Moses mast? I'm interested to compare weight with others.

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Re: How long is too long

Postby evan » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:31 am

sonny2727 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:34 am
evan wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:45 am
Be very careful jumping on moses masts, seen too many crack a mast just above the fuselage. On the new 106 mast they even specifically say to not jump with it!

Above 110cm there are indeed diminishing returns on Stiffness vs drag, making the mast either too flexible and hard to control or too thick and draggy. Both seems to be slower than a stiffer and thinner shorter mast when racing.


Note that the bending Stiffness comes to the length squared. So a 30% longer mast needs already 69% more Stiffness to feel the same.
Thanks..Interesting info..looks like most of the racier masts and boards are not designed for jumping but at 70kg I'm hoping I don't have to change too often ..on a session 50 jumps X maybe 80 sessions a year ..
I haven't noticed any stiffness issues with 111 and it feels stiff as 90cm aluminum..heard previous Moses masts were wobbly crap but latest one much stiffer ..from 2019 for 111 Mosses uses (pavlova?) wood core and supposed to be stiffer
You can argue that none of the moses masts are designed for jumping, they all have the same tiny mast-fusalage connection that seems not be able to handle the stresses long term. So jump at your own risk!


But it could be also a problem only in the stiffer race masts, as the stiffer and more expensive HM carbon is also weaker:

Carbon HM carbon
Tensile strength: 3500 2480
Elasticity: 235 338

Meaning that the older moses masts with normal carbon that are more bendy were also al lot stronger but as the newer masts needed to be al lot stiffer for racing they switched to HM carbon while keeping the same fuse-mast connection as before. Making that part of the mast weaker in the process, hence all the broken race masts I have seen around.

At least, that is my theory behind it. Don't know if the older moses masts were strong enough for jumping.

sonny2727
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Re: How long is too long

Postby sonny2727 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:53 am

evan wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:31 am
sonny2727 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:34 am
evan wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:45 am
Be very careful jumping on moses masts, seen too many crack a mast just above the fuselage. On the new 106 mast they even specifically say to not jump with it!

Above 110cm there are indeed diminishing returns on Stiffness vs drag, making the mast either too flexible and hard to control or too thick and draggy. Both seems to be slower than a stiffer and thinner shorter mast when racing.


Note that the bending Stiffness comes to the length squared. So a 30% longer mast needs already 69% more Stiffness to feel the same.
Thanks..Interesting info..looks like most of the racier masts and boards are not designed for jumping but at 70kg I'm hoping I don't have to change too often ..on a session 50 jumps X maybe 80 sessions a year ..
I haven't noticed any stiffness issues with 111 and it feels stiff as 90cm aluminum..heard previous Moses masts were wobbly crap but latest one much stiffer ..from 2019 for 111 Mosses uses (pavlova?) wood core and supposed to be stiffer
You can argue that none of the moses masts are designed for jumping, they all have the same tiny mast-fusalage connection that seems not be able to handle the stresses long term. So jump at your own risk!


But it could be also a problem only in the stiffer race masts, as the stiffer and more expensive HM carbon is also weaker:

Carbon HM carbon
Tensile strength: 3500 2480
Elasticity: 235 338

Meaning that the older moses masts with normal carbon that are more bendy were also al lot stronger but as the newer masts needed to be al lot stiffer for racing they switched to HM carbon while keeping the same fuse-mast connection as before. Making that part of the mast weaker in the process, hence all the broken race masts I have seen around.

At least, that is my theory behind it. Don't know if the older moses masts were strong enough for jumping.
Evan..Ok so what mast and brand do you use ...and recommend then?


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