Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 10531
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 331 times
Been thanked: 416 times

Re: how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:51 am

omg wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:15 am
What’s the right kind of front wing for these lake small swell/wave conditions? Faster higher AR or the opposite?

I would go for the same as in other waves, big low AR.

Only if you want more speed in general if often no waves at all, go for a faster as a compromise :D

Even better, one of each to suit the conditions.

8) Peter
These users thanked the author Peter_Frank for the post:
papasmerf (Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:18 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

drsurf
Frequent Poster
Posts: 315
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:42 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Local Beach: NSW South Coast
Gear: Too much too describe
Brand Affiliation: Whatever I sell
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 145 times
Contact:

Re: how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

Postby drsurf » Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:14 am

papasmerf wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:32 pm
been trying to "surf" the windwaves at my local spot. they are usually 1-3 ft tall, not sure what speed they are traveling at,,, i will go straight downwind doing carving turns but i seem to be way outrunning the waves, like i can start a carving toeside turn on the inside of a wind wave, i can feel it boost me, and i start going "downhill" a bit, and then i will carve thru the wave in front of it and sometimes the next one. maybe on small waves it is impossible to carve that tight to stay on it? about 3/4 of the way thru the carve i lose speed and sort of need a little help from kite,,, but my goal is to not use the kite but the waves only. using a north sonar 1150 and 7m hyperlink. the hyperlink works pretty good for drift and shutting off power. these aren't waves like at the gorge,, defintely smaller. would a more glide oriented foil work better? then i could glide further out from the wave without losing speed, and then cut back and catch it again? no surf background for me, btw. of course, these wind waves aren't like a long connected same wave,, they do tend to disappear lengthwise,, maybe that is problem. any advice?
Hi papasmerf. I ride bay waves a lot in my local beach as the ocean waves only tend to come directly into the bay in an easterly swell, which rarely coincide with wind. So we mainly have wind generated waves as you describe which are quite irregular and get bigger as the wind increases.

As has been mentioned, you do have to hunt for the waves as one runs out and another becomes visible. So you have to be agile and be able to speed up or slow down to match the wave/s. Myself and a number of other kitefoilers here use the Peak4 kites to get the most out of the waves. We all have a similar sized foil as your Sonar and weigh from 65kg to 100kg. The right sized Peak4 will drift better than any other kite and has the agility and instant power/depower to control your speed and position on the waves. They're also inexpensive compared to a Hyperlink.

Your 7m Hyperlink would be considered a massive kite amongst foilers here. My 100kg friend mainly uses a 5m Peak4 in 10 knots plus and changes to a 4m Peak4 in winds over 15 knots. The Peak4 is quite powerful for its size and you only need enough power to get yourself out of the water and onto the board as once you are foiling you don't need much power at all. Apparent wind means foiling back upwind to the waves is no problem. Being able to use smaller kites means they are very responsive and manoeuvrable which is just what you need on a surf foil. The drift means when you catch a small wave you can depower, and just surf the wave with the foil until the wave peters out while looking for the next one and repeat.

There's a reason why the Peak4 thread is so popular, viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2401224 these kites are incredibly good for foiling on surf foils. They are also easy to use and can stay in the air down to 3-4 knots.
There is a limit when surfing waves downwind, if the wind is too light you'll have to carve across the wave more to keep enough power in your kite. With the Peak4 this limit is lower as the kite only has to feel 3-4 knots to stay in the air and be controllable. If you are a reasonable kiter you can also work the kite and keep its apparent wind high to keep it airborne in low wind. Learning to pump your foil a little can also help you stay on the wave if you hit a lull. You also need to find the best position on your waves for foiling. I've found that riding the waves a lot closer to the peak works better than on the face where you can often inadvertently accelerate down into the trough and lose the ride.

Keep practicing and try a Peak4 and see what you think.
These users thanked the author drsurf for the post:
papasmerf (Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:18 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6660
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 128 times

Re: how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:25 pm

papasmerf wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:32 pm
been trying to "surf" the windwaves at my local spot. they are usually 1-3 ft tall, not sure what speed they are traveling at,,, i will go straight downwind doing carving turns but i seem to be way outrunning the waves, like i can start a carving toeside turn on the inside of a wind wave, i can feel it boost me, and i start going "downhill" a bit, and then i will carve thru the wave in front of it and sometimes the next one. maybe on small waves it is impossible to carve that tight to stay on it? about 3/4 of the way thru the carve i lose speed and sort of need a little help from kite,,, but my goal is to not use the kite but the waves only. using a north sonar 1150 and 7m hyperlink. the hyperlink works pretty good for drift and shutting off power. these aren't waves like at the gorge,, defintely smaller. would a more glide oriented foil work better? then i could glide further out from the wave without losing speed, and then cut back and catch it again? no surf background for me, btw. of course, these wind waves aren't like a long connected same wave,, they do tend to disappear lengthwise,, maybe that is problem. any advice?
No surf background here either.

You don't say what direction the wind is going relative to the waves... on our lake waves tend to move down wind or slightly cross, so I've never experienced "down the line" riding. But even so, you can get on a "wave" and ride it for ages -- so long as you don't try cutting back and forth.

If carving around is your thing: You can slow right down and just sit on top of the barrel, noodling back n' forth. Which isn't very exciting I guess :D

Or carve aggressively back n' forth, aiming to get all the way back around on to the barrel again. The lighter the wind, the smaller the wave, the more you need to aggressively work the kite side to side to keep a bit of pull across the window...

That's my 2 cents anyway.
These users thanked the author Kamikuza for the post:
papasmerf (Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:20 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

slowboat
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 769
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:55 pm
Style: wave foiling
Gear: This and that
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 94 times
Been thanked: 103 times

Re: how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

Postby slowboat » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:38 pm

omg wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:15 am
What’s the right kind of front wing for these lake small swell/wave conditions? Faster higher AR or the opposite?
Don’t confuse foil speed with AR. You want slow but high AR. Slow so that you don’t outrun the waves but high AR so you have lots of glide. You give up turning ability but you are not really carving on these waves anyway, it is just a downwind glide. I am not pushing a particular brand but an example is the Axis 1150. It has an area of around 1750 and AR over 7. It will go slow and so stays engaged with the wave longer and will glide “forever” on the smallest bumps. (I free glide for 20-30 seconds at a time on knee-high wind chop wingdinging).

So that is the kind of foil that works well for free surfing wind swell. But as I stated earlier, I am not sure if one can really make such a foil work with a kite.
These users thanked the author slowboat for the post:
papasmerf (Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:20 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

User avatar
jumptheshark
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1698
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:36 pm
Local Beach: Shhhhh
Favorite Beaches: Nude
Gear: The good stuff
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 287 times
Been thanked: 514 times

Re: how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

Postby jumptheshark » Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:48 pm

No thanks, albatross wings are for wingers and paddlers.

I guess it depends on what you mean by surf. If you want to go the purist route and ride wave power only in wind swell, your gonna spend a lot of time standing straight upright at pretty low speeds. Very long board style riding. Might better suit a wing.

A med aspect thin profile foil is way more playful, has a wide speed envelope and plenty of glide. With the right kite it’s easy to capture more of a shortboard surf feel with similar pace and lines.

To me thats practically the holy grail !

Foiling lake swell can probably be done a bunch of ways. I'm aiming for as shortboard a feel as possible. When its small, there is a bit of mogul skiing vibe that fades when it gets big enough to have fun on a single swell. Spicing up the exits with little airs helps keep a bit of shortboard aftertaste.

Unhooking will be the next step.
Last edited by jumptheshark on Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
These users thanked the author jumptheshark for the post (total 2):
papasmerf (Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:20 pm) • LeoLeal (Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:49 pm)
Rating: 13.33%

papasmerf
Frequent Poster
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:18 am
Local Beach: west coast
Style: lawn mower
Gear: SLINGSHOT, NORTH, moses, some ozone,
Brand Affiliation: I like slingshot and north. good folks
Has thanked: 93 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

Postby papasmerf » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:18 pm

Slappysan wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:49 am
papasmerf wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:32 pm
of course, these wind waves aren't like a long connected same wave,, they do tend to disappear lengthwise,, maybe that is problem. any advice?
This is the main issue, wind swell is usually only 3-5m wide, not one long wave like ground swell delivers. I find that they just don't last and you have to always be hunting for a new one. It helps a lot to be going across the wave and not down the wave though, then cut back and across the other side. Be on your toe side or heel side as much as you can.

This is what I mainly do, even though I do it in the ocean it's still crappy wind swell and you can see I still end up out running the swell a lot:


That day was too windy for my usual hydrofoiling kite, Peak 4 5m so I had to use the 4.5m LF Solo which doesn't drift as well making it more challenging.
have you tried catching any waves off the cargo ships?

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2505
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 199 times
Been thanked: 223 times

Re: how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

Postby Matteo V » Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:09 pm

omg wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:15 am
What’s the right kind of front wing for these lake small swell/wave conditions? Faster higher AR or the opposite?
I would guess slow lake waves would match up with slower lower aspect hydrofoil wings. But more lift with a larger low aspect would likely be essential.

With the waves wave length being shorter, wouldn't a shorter span wing "fit" on the submerged "face" better? This would be just like using a shorter SB on small close together waves.

Just guessing here.

User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 10531
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 331 times
Been thanked: 416 times

Re: how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:45 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:09 pm
omg wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:15 am
What’s the right kind of front wing for these lake small swell/wave conditions? Faster higher AR or the opposite?
I would guess slow lake waves would match up with slower lower aspect hydrofoil wings. But more lift with a larger low aspect would likely be essential.

With the waves wave length being shorter, wouldn't a shorter span wing "fit" on the submerged "face" better? This would be just like using a shorter SB on small close together waves.

Just guessing here.

In my experience, yes.

So a big low AR wing will make you able to glide on these small slow waves running almost or fully same direction as the wind, and you can carve all the way around on the face - really fun.

And practice both riding with left or right foot forward :thumb:

:lol: Peter
These users thanked the author Peter_Frank for the post:
Matteo V (Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:00 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

User avatar
Flyboy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1930
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 77 times
Been thanked: 103 times

Re: how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

Postby Flyboy » Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:54 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:48 pm
No thanks, albatross wings are for wingers and paddlers.

I guess it depends on what you mean by surf. If you want to go the purist route and ride wave power only in wind swell, your gonna spend a lot of time standing straight upright at pretty low speeds. Very long board style riding. Might better suit a wing.

A med aspect thin profile foil is way more playful, has a wide speed envelope and plenty of glide. With the right kite it’s easy to capture more of a shortboard surf feel with similar pace and lines.

To me thats practically the holy grail !

Foiling lake swell can probably be done a bunch of ways. I'm aiming for as shortboard a feel as possible. When its small, there is a bit of mogul skiing vibe that fades when it gets big enough to have fun on a single swell. Spicing up the exits with little airs helps keep a bit of shortboard aftertaste.

Unhooking will be the next step.
I agree. The question is, what does "surfing" really mean when it comes to foiling? Riding on the wave in the direction of the wave - "longboard style" - is not very exciting. It's what I see happening in a lot of winging videos: use the wing to get on the wave face & then ride along with the wave with the wing totally depowered. OK - that's "surfing" but it doesn't strike me as particularly interesting (disclaimer: I know it's possible to do other stuff with a wing).

To me, this video represents the pinnacle of kite foil wave riding:



Moderate sized, long, perfectly formed waves with the kite providing little spikes of power at strategic moments. It may not be as dramatic or athletic as surfing Pipelne, but it's perfect for what I aspire to. Unfortunately, we never have conditions like that at my home spots, so I content myself with something a bit more modest.

However, the same principles apply: using the glide of the wing to maximize the potential of the swell & using the kite to provide little inputs of power when needed. The use of inputs from the kite doesn't make it "less surfing" in a negative way, it makes it possible to use what's available more effectively. :thumb:

LeoLeal
Medium Poster
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:17 am
Kiting since: 2010
Local Beach: Maracaípe, ilha de Itamaracá
Favorite Beaches: Maracaípe (PE)
Ilha de Itamaracá (PE)
Ponta de Campina (PB)
Barra do Cunhau (RN)
São Miguel do gostoso ( RN)
Style: Freeride, Strapless Freestyle
Gear: Drifter 12m 2019
Peak4 8m & 5m
Pro Voke 5.1"
Trax 132
Slingshot Hoverglide H5 / H3 / H4 + Pocket 1.23m 18L
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: RECIFE - BRAZIL
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: how to "surf" wind waves on inland lake

Postby LeoLeal » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:49 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:48 pm
No thanks, albatross wings are for wingers and paddlers.

I guess it depends on what you mean by surf. If you want to go the purist route and ride wave power only in wind swell, your gonna spend a lot of time standing straight upright at pretty low speeds. Very long board style riding. Might better suit a wing.

A med aspect thin profile foil is way more playful, has a wide speed envelope and plenty of glide. With the right kite it’s easy to capture more of a shortboard surf feel with similar pace and lines.

To me thats practically the holy grail !

Foiling lake swell can probably be done a bunch of ways. I'm aiming for as shortboard a feel as possible. When its small, there is a bit of mogul skiing vibe that fades when it gets big enough to have fun on a single swell. Spicing up the exits with little airs helps keep a bit of shortboard aftertaste.

Unhooking will be the next step.
This moses 790 fits this specifications?


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests