Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

[papasmerf]

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A couple of friends are telling me that cabrinha double agent is such an old foil with outdated performance, since it has the same design as the 2015 line, and the industry have evolved a lot in the last years.
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It is more perception than anything else. What is considered to be the "modern foil", the increased wing area? Then, there is nothing really special about Moses, and you will be equally as good on any 1100 cm^2 wing. That is assuming that you will actually like slower and draggier wing like Moses Onda. (I have hard time finding any technical info on Cabrinha double agent foil, but the wing looks similar to Liquid Force Fish/Rocket which is 850 cm^2).

from my perspective, having ridden the cabrinha for 2 or 3 months,,, it has a ton of drag for a flat thin wing,, it is essentially a flat shape angled up, and it only gets lift from speed, where as when i started on the sonar 1150, it gets lift from the cross section wing type shape, as well as speed,, i mean, i don't know the technical stuff but it was a whole different world with the newer wing,,, in a good way.

i just think the opening poster would surely benefit from a newer wing, maybe make his life a bit easier.

i will say it was nice for a few sessions to learn the basics, but i for sure wish i would have bought something a lot sooner

and also,, it is about 850 cm2 for the cabrinha, and i surely appreciate the extra surface area of the sonar

[vitaum]

I haven't seen any moses foils here. I'm sure they live up to the expectation of Italian craftsmanship. The slingshot version is exactly the same shape (633 was designed by slingshot designer Tony Logosz) so I have compared the planform, profile, aspect ratio and design in general.

The current lift stuff is top shelf. They have been making foils for over a decade and the growing pains are over when it comes to manufacturing and design. The 170 is my dream foil. I jump a lot and am very happy to have a monocoque design.

I don't think going carbon has anything to do with being too stiff for beginners. In fact most aluminum masts are stiffer than carbon. With foils there really isn't such a thing as too stiff! I think overall design is what leads to a stable foil and ease of use. The benefits of carbon are more about weight and corrosion resistance. Either the 633 or the Lift 170 are perfectly appropriate for your stage of foiling and you will likely find them quite easy to progress on.

Perfect, question answered! Thanks again!

[vitaum]

...
A couple of friends are telling me that cabrinha double agent is such an old foil with outdated performance, since it has the same design as the 2015 line, and the industry have evolved a lot in the last years.
...

It is more perception than anything else. What is considered to be the "modern foil", the increased wing area? Then, there is nothing really special about Moses, and you will be equally as good on any 1100 cm^2 wing. That is assuming that you will actually like slower and draggier wing like Moses Onda. (I have hard time finding any technical info on Cabrinha double agent foil, but the wing looks similar to Liquid Force Fish/Rocket which is 850 cm^2).

That´s exactly what I wanted to know. Of course I don´t know anything about wing designs, but the shape of the wings of the cabrinha double agent 2018 are not that different from the moses onda, for example, at least they do look alike. They just seem to be smaller, I think
I also looked for tech info of it but I just couldn´t find any, for any specific reason (this is the foil https://www.thekiteboarder.com/2018/03/ ... ble-agent/)

[vitaum]

i can recommend the liquid force impulse/cloud9 s24. great value wing. all the ones i have had cracked (3 of them), but it doesnt noticably effect performance. the impulse is more stable than 633, but slower.
you could also get a liquid force thruster here for 350$, https://elitewatersports.com/products/l ... e365&_ss=r

good price, and not a bad wing.

That´s a hell of a deal! I ll more about it and seek any friend coming from us to brazil to bring one! hahaha, thanks!

[vitaum]

...
A couple of friends are telling me that cabrinha double agent is such an old foil with outdated performance, since it has the same design as the 2015 line, and the industry have evolved a lot in the last years.
...

It is more perception than anything else. What is considered to be the "modern foil", the increased wing area? Then, there is nothing really special about Moses, and you will be equally as good on any 1100 cm^2 wing. That is assuming that you will actually like slower and draggier wing like Moses Onda. (I have hard time finding any technical info on Cabrinha double agent foil, but the wing looks similar to Liquid Force Fish/Rocket which is 850 cm^2).

from my perspective, having ridden the cabrinha for 2 or 3 months,,, it has a ton of drag for a flat thin wing,, it is essentially a flat shape angled up, and it only gets lift from speed, where as when i started on the sonar 1150, it gets lift from the cross section wing type shape, as well as speed,, i mean, i don't know the technical stuff but it was a whole different world with the newer wing,,, in a good way.

i just think the opening poster would surely benefit from a newer wing, maybe make his life a bit easier.

i will say it was nice for a few sessions to learn the basics, but i for sure wish i would have bought something a lot sooner

and also,, it is about 850 cm2 for the cabrinha, and i surely appreciate the extra surface area of the sonar

I can´t really tell those things (if it has more of less drag, how does it lift and etc), that´s why I am asking. I never tried another foil, just bought this because someone told me that it was a great option to learn
That´s why I am fully trusting your words!

[Bennis123]

I don't know why no one has suggested the Slingshot Apollo yet. As far as I know it's almost exactly the same design as the moses 633. I'm planning to upgrade from the space skate to the Apollo and I'm about the same level as you. It's quite a heavy setup, but I don't think that matters much(someone else could probably elaborate on that).

[vitaum]

I got a good deal in a 590 foil kit.
Looked everywhere for reviews and it seems tô be really good for beginners and even with a better top speed (that I dont know if I will ever reach)
Any opinions? Thanks guys!

[grigorib]

Until about a year ago Fred Hope was still riding 590. It’s an awesome wing but not very lightwindish unless you weigh 55 kilos. Pleasure to ride but expect needing more speed to fly.
If you can get a larger wing for it like 695 it would feel much better for beginner-intermediate setup (or a heavier rider).

I got 590 and 633 three years back and for the time they were great pair. Frank Rosin posted much better pair then - 637 and 683s. viewtopic.php?p=1005724#p1005724
Get 683s-679 if you can

What is your budget for carbon foil setup?

[vitaum]

Until about a year ago Fred Hope was still riding 590. It’s an awesome wing but not very lightwindish unless you weigh 55 kilos. Pleasure to ride but expect needing more speed to fly.
If you can get a larger wing for it like 695 it would feel much better for beginner-intermediate setup (or a heavier rider).

I got 590 and 633 three years back and for the time they were great pair. Frank Rosin posted much better pair then - 637 and 683s. viewtopic.php?p=1005724#p1005724
Get 683s-679 if you can

What is your budget for carbon foil setup?

Dont have a specific budget, depends on finding deals here in brazil. When you say it needs more speed to fly, how much more it will be? Sufficient to be hard for beginners? Thanks!

[grigorib]

Until about a year ago Fred Hope was still riding 590. It’s an awesome wing but not very lightwindish unless you weigh 55 kilos. Pleasure to ride but expect needing more speed to fly.
If you can get a larger wing for it like 695 it would feel much better for beginner-intermediate setup (or a heavier rider).

I got 590 and 633 three years back and for the time they were great pair. Frank Rosin posted much better pair then - 637 and 683s. viewtopic.php?p=1005724#p1005724
Get 683s-679 if you can

What is your budget for carbon foil setup?

Dont have a specific budget, depends on finding deals here in brazil. When you say it needs more speed to fly, how much more it will be? Sufficient to be hard for beginners? Thanks!

Depends on your weight. For a teenage kid or anyone under 60 kilos the 590 is fine even at low end. People learnt and rode smaller wings in the past. Yet with larger wings being introduced it became clear that to learn you should use larger wings.
Kite fuselage fits larger 695 and 800 wings and it’s easier to learn on those or even larger wing, e.g. RDB 1200

If you find the a cheap 590 set you’d be able to extend it with larger wings for additional $300-400