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Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

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vitaum
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Re: Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

Postby vitaum » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:00 pm

papasmerf wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:51 pm
vitaum wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:52 pm
Hello! I am new to foiling and I have a cabrinha double agent 2018 set. I ve been having a hard time learning but things are getting better now, and I am on the "learning step" of transitions. :D

A couple of friends are telling me that cabrinha double agent is such an old foil with outdated performance, since it has the same design as the 2015 line, and the industry have evolved a lot in the last years.

So I started researching and I found the moses onda 91 633 to be a really good setup for me, since I am an occasional rider (don´t have too much time to ride, unfortunately), and I just want an easy and stable foil for begineers that I can ride and have fun just freeriding and hanging out (not interested in tricks, or super speed racing and etc).

But the problem is that moses stuff are sooooo expensive!
Can anybody tell me the reason? Are they so expensive due to materials (all carbon and etc), technology/engineering behind it or just brand strenght?

My point is: can I have a similar foil set (moses onda 91 633) with another known brand such as duotone, north, cabrinha, f-one, naish and etc? (i said those brands because they are easy to buy here in Brazil)

And do you guys agree that my cabrinha double agent 2018 is outdated and I should replace it?

Thanks guys!
hi vitaum, i also just learned this last year on a older cabrinha double agent like you that a friend loaned me. and i think your friends are right, i used to think a foil was a foil. but i started trying some other foils at the local beach, like armstrong and naish and gong. i think the cabrinha maybe be holding you back. i wound up with a north sonar with an 85cm mast and the 1150 front wing. i also got the 1650 wing. it was a great decision. very, very affordable and the quality is top notch, equal to or better than axis. less wing selection (for now) but the 1150 wing is so nice after the cabrinha. it does everything better than the old cabrinha. it came with a aluminum mast which i think is what made it more affordable but that's what axis comes with and axis was super expensive imo. i think the others are more expensive cause of carbon masts. but i am older and i am foiling in a style like you describe right now,,, just freeriding and hanging out, carving hard, i can also stay out kiting when everyone else has come in since i have a nicer foil, right now only one other foiler on a really old foil (but kites matter a lot in light wind, it's not just the foil). i also use the 1650 wing for when it gets super light although i am sure a 633 would be also fine for you, however it may be more expensive than the north

however, as grig said, looking at the used market is always a good idea,, not sure how easy it is to find a used foil in brazil, it seems they are not usable in the lagoons which are very popular,, they would work great in the ocean obviously. if you can find a used north sonar foil set,,, i give it top marks
papasmerf, thanks a lot for your words! As someone who has pretty much the same experience as me, it means a lot!
I will definetely look for this north sonar, it is easy to find north stuff around here. So your suggest the 1150 front wing, right?

about kites, I think I ll pick a ozone alpha, since I like LEI

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jumptheshark
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Re: Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:21 pm

The lift 170 is not all that different in general design. Have set it beside the slingshot version and they are not all that different and roughly the same area and aspect ratio. I have found it a simple, strong, well balanced and very light foil. It is a pretty much the best deal you will find on a full carbon set up. They also deliver to your door at reasonable cost.

I know its a carbon set up, but imo worth it.
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vitaum (Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:54 pm)
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vitaum
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Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:38 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Weight: 70kg
Local Beach: São Paulo - Brazil
Style: freeride
Gear: cabrinha switchblade 9m 2018, cabrinha contra 13m 2018, cabrinha double agent 2018, nobile split 2018
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Re: Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

Postby vitaum » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:52 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:21 pm
The lift 170 is not all that different in general design. Have set it beside the slingshot version and they are not all that different and roughly the same area and aspect ratio. I have found it a simple, strong, well balanced and very light foil. It is a pretty much the best deal you will find on a full carbon set up. They also deliver to your door at reasonable cost.

I know its a carbon set up, but imo worth it.
hi jumptheshark! the lift foils prices don´t differ too much from the moses here in Brazil, just a little bit lower. So what is your opinion about it? Is it inferior to moses or pretty much the same thing?

vitaum
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Re: Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

Postby vitaum » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:53 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:21 pm
The lift 170 is not all that different in general design. Have set it beside the slingshot version and they are not all that different and roughly the same area and aspect ratio. I have found it a simple, strong, well balanced and very light foil. It is a pretty much the best deal you will find on a full carbon set up. They also deliver to your door at reasonable cost.

I know its a carbon set up, but imo worth it.
another question, regarding carbon masts (and even carbon boards).
Is it true that they are aimed to advanced riders because they are too stiff and don´t allow mistakes?

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Re: Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

Postby grigorib » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:13 pm

There are carbon and carbon. Aluminum is stiff, almost solid carbon is stiff and then as manufacturers replace more and more of core with foam and glass fiber you get much lighter option which is not as stiff anymore.
Usually it’s carbon wings that take a lot of abuse from reef and rocks. Carbon masts are pleasure to ride and heavens to carry/transport.
Last edited by grigorib on Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jumptheshark
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Re: Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:14 pm

I haven't seen any moses foils here. I'm sure they live up to the expectation of Italian craftsmanship. The slingshot version is exactly the same shape (633 was designed by slingshot designer Tony Logosz) so I have compared the planform, profile, aspect ratio and design in general.

The current lift stuff is top shelf. They have been making foils for over a decade and the growing pains are over when it comes to manufacturing and design. The 170 is my dream foil. I jump a lot and am very happy to have a monocoque design.

I don't think going carbon has anything to do with being too stiff for beginners. In fact most aluminum masts are stiffer than carbon. With foils there really isn't such a thing as too stiff! I think overall design is what leads to a stable foil and ease of use. The benefits of carbon are more about weight and corrosion resistance. Either the 633 or the Lift 170 are perfectly appropriate for your stage of foiling and you will likely find them quite easy to progress on.
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papasmerf
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Re: Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

Postby papasmerf » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:37 pm

vitaum wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:52 pm
jumptheshark wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:21 pm
The lift 170 is not all that different in general design. Have set it beside the slingshot version and they are not all that different and roughly the same area and aspect ratio. I have found it a simple, strong, well balanced and very light foil. It is a pretty much the best deal you will find on a full carbon set up. They also deliver to your door at reasonable cost.

I know its a carbon set up, but imo worth it.
hi jumptheshark! the lift foils prices don´t differ too much from the moses here in Brazil, just a little bit lower. So what is your opinion about it? Is it inferior to moses or pretty much the same thing?
yes, i think the north 1150 sonar wing is the magic one for cruising around, if you can find a good deal on a used one, go for it! 85 cm mast though is best. i am using a hypermiler board, but have used it on other boards fine

i also tried a friends lift 170 but didn't get much time on it but i thought it was very nice, wish i would have had more time on it. i seriously doubt it is inferior to moses as far as build quality.

i think the big difference is, i believe, not totally sure, but the 170 is all one piece for the front wing, fuse, and stab, so you can not switch out wings and stab like most other brands, especially moses that has a ton of different wings/stabs so as you progress, you can just buy a different wing and have a totally different experience but in all reality, you probably wont' want to change wings anytime soon.

lift also has a 150,, and the lighter guys around here have the 150 while the 170 maybe be better for like 180 lbs and above, not sure on exact number

also, there is something out there called the 170fish,, which is not the same as the classic 170 so make sure you know what you are buying

you could not go wrong if you found a good used deal on a lift, just make sure it is the size you want for your weight

shark knows his stuff, that is for sure, for carbon set up, lift is best deal, but you wont' be able to change out wings without getting a whole new monocoque ,,but the good news is you probably won't want to.

another thing to consider is generally the aluminum mast stuff will not float on it's side for water starting, while the all carbon ones usually will, and it makes it easier to water start strapless but if you are using straps then i don't think it matters,,, imo

i am no real expert like a lot of these guys but i did just go thru what you are about to go thru

just my thoughts, anyone feel free to correct me if i am wrong
Last edited by papasmerf on Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:11 pm

Lift's classic line of foils are one piece main wing fuse and tail. Their surf line of foils have separate and interchangeable tails.

Surf has a slightly thicker wing profile too, so not quite as low drag, but more lift as slower speeds.
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vakiter
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Re: Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

Postby vakiter » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:35 am

i can recommend the liquid force impulse/cloud9 s24. great value wing. all the ones i have had cracked (3 of them), but it doesnt noticably effect performance. the impulse is more stable than 633, but slower.
you could also get a liquid force thruster here for 350$, https://elitewatersports.com/products/l ... e365&_ss=r

good price, and not a bad wing.
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tegirinenashi
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Re: Moses Onda 91 633 alternatives

Postby tegirinenashi » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:09 am

vitaum wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:52 pm
...
A couple of friends are telling me that cabrinha double agent is such an old foil with outdated performance, since it has the same design as the 2015 line, and the industry have evolved a lot in the last years.
...
It is more perception than anything else. What is considered to be the "modern foil", the increased wing area? Then, there is nothing really special about Moses, and you will be equally as good on any 1100 cm^2 wing. That is assuming that you will actually like slower and draggier wing like Moses Onda. (I have hard time finding any technical info on Cabrinha double agent foil, but the wing looks similar to Liquid Force Fish/Rocket which is 850 cm^2).
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