Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Imperfections Carbon Mast

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 10531
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 331 times
Been thanked: 416 times

Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:37 am

BayAreaKite is spot on :thumb:

8) Peter

windmaker
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1790
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:48 am
Local Beach: .
Style: Strapless surf and foil
Gear: F-One & Aeros kites/ HB surf/ Taaroa foil/ Manera
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 58 times
Contact:

Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby windmaker » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:43 am

I think it is fair to say that there is a significant difference between carbon masts, not so much between aluminum masts. Depending on layup and quality of materials used there can be a 10x fold difference in stiffness and strength between 2 different carbon masts. Some aluminum masts are even stiffer and close to the same weight than some carbons...

PrfctChaos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:16 am
Local Beach: Perth
Style: Wave
Gear: Peak4's, Chrono V3, Skimboards, foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby PrfctChaos » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:23 am

windmaker wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:43 am
I think it is fair to say that there is a significant difference between carbon masts, not so much between aluminum masts. Depending on layup and quality of materials used there can be a 10x fold difference in stiffness and strength between 2 different carbon masts. Some aluminum masts are even stiffer and close to the same weight than some carbons...
But then those aluminium masts must be wider, which has its own drawbacks...

That is why racing carbon masts are often nice and thin, but quite heavy, because of all the carbon used to get the thinner section strong and stiff.

fluidity
Frequent Poster
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:20 pm
Kiting since: 2015
Local Beach: Ngati Toa, Plimmerton, Titahi Bay, Waikanae, Petone, Seatoun, Lyall Bay, Eastbourne, Lake Wairarapa
Favorite Beaches: Plimmerton
Style: Wave, jump
Gear: Late model Switch kites element and nitros,
DIY CAD ultra-concave wave twintips 1500 and 130mm with my own fin designs. Easy upwind, awesome carving. Switch Nitro 10m V7, Naish 5.3m Wing. Now focussing on Wingsurfing to rise to a new challenge. Building my own foils from my CAD design and 3D prints, built a CNC machine last year and now cutting designs with CNC as well as 3D printing.
Up to 3 DIY foil designs built and getting the hang of wingsurf foiling as we switch into 2021.
Location: Porirua New Zealand
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 52 times

Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby fluidity » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:45 am

Twist resistance and bend resistance are the main loadings on a mast.
Biaxial fibre or 45 degree woven layup or (best) braid give the best twist resistance.
Unidiractional carbon fibre running the length on the sides gives best bending resistance.
The centre core does very little but to keep the dimensions correct and resist buckling, this is why bamboo is hollow.
As with 3D printing, the most intense loadings are near the skin of the mast. Most of this you won't find out about a mast you are buying unless they publicise their construction methods.

Twist resistance is needed when you hit something in the water/on the ground at speed on the side or even the wingtip of the foil. It generates a massive twisting torque from the bottom of the mast to the mast box up top.
Bend resistance is mostly from down pressure and uneven foil resistance- like a breach with a high wingspan foil or climbing on to your board when a wingtip is resting on something imovable.

With Aluminium is the profile is very carefully designed to meet these requirements, hollow in the centre, strength around the skin. With carbon, you may only have a cosmetic outer carbon layer and glass fibre inside. It could still be super tough, likely more resilient than full carbon. But heavier. Carbon is more susceptable to fracturing than glass fibre. Without cutting one open you can only go on reviews from those who have long experience of a mast.

windmaker
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1790
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:48 am
Local Beach: .
Style: Strapless surf and foil
Gear: F-One & Aeros kites/ HB surf/ Taaroa foil/ Manera
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 58 times
Contact:

Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby windmaker » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:55 am

PrfctChaos wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:23 am
windmaker wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:43 am
I think it is fair to say that there is a significant difference between carbon masts, not so much between aluminum masts. Depending on layup and quality of materials used there can be a 10x fold difference in stiffness and strength between 2 different carbon masts. Some aluminum masts are even stiffer and close to the same weight than some carbons...
But then those aluminium masts must be wider, which has its own drawbacks...

That is why racing carbon masts are often nice and thin, but quite heavy, because of all the carbon used to get the thinner section strong and stiff.
For sure, but disregarding the price, what is best. Basic shape stiff aluminum or tapered, thinner but flexier carbon.

I just quickly tester two 85cm masts which i have at my disposal, one aluminum and one carbon, same brand. With the mast attached to the board I rapidly tested the twist, which on the aluminum was stiffer. On the water the carbon mast feels more slippery but apart from that I could not really feel any difference

I am a light rider (66kg) mostly using a 530cm2 wing so if the carbon mast was already " pretty stiff", flex will be less noticeable than if i was 90kg using a 1200cm2.

airsail
Frequent Poster
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:57 am
Weight: 80kg
Local Beach: Queens Beach North, Queensland, Australia
Favorite Beaches: Queens North, I don’t travel much
Style: Foiling
Gear: Sonic 3 15mtr, Soul 10 mtr, BRM Clouds 8, 6.2, 4.8, 3.7
Lift, Naish and Levitaz foils
Carbonco and home build boards
Ozone and Duotone wings
Naish Hover 95 foilboard
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 68 times
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby airsail » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:58 am

I use both alloy and carbon masts. The alloy is used for bigger wings, 1500 sqcm and above with metre wide wingspans, where mast stiffness is super important, it provides a very rigid direct feel to the wing. I use the carbon masts for smaller wings, 1200 sqcm and below where the flex isn’t as noticeable or can be lived with.
I have noticed foot switches are much easier an the alloy mast, the board just feels more stable during the switch even with the smaller wings fitted. But there is the weight and maintenance penalty of an alloy foil so I only use the alloy when I really have to.

Foil
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:44 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Local Beach: New Brighton- nr Liverpool. Open sea with big low tide lagoon
Favorite Beaches: New Brighton, Rhosneigr, Fleetwood, Newbrough
lake Como (Italy)
Style: improving kite foiler since 2017
Gear: Groove Skates 110 and 120 custom graphics and volume 2021 editions
101cm + 91cm Moses Carbon masts
Moses- 633/483 on a 701 fuse
Moses- 718 /421 on the smaller lighter kite fuse
Ozone Hyperlink V1 ultra light 5mtr
Ozone V2 Hyperlink 7mtr + 9mtr
Ozone Chrono V4 foil kite 11mtr, red
duotone click bar 2020, custom lines
duotone 2021 click bar (waiting for delivery)
ION B3 seat harness, now waiting 7 months for delivery:o
massive grin
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 255 times

Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby Foil » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:31 am

Many guys on here use Moses masts, and although there have been 3 carbon masts reported(on here)broken over 4 years, they were older versions pre 2018, and one was old and well used,
however no mast failures naming moses has been reported that I can see from Moses carbon masts from the last 2-3 years production runs.

Many of us have slammed hard and fast into sand bank and some guys into rock reef boulders and the Moses carbon masts have survived, I have pictures of the result of one maximum speed smash into a shallow sand bar which catapulted the rider fast and long, he was wearing full straps and feared the worst as the impact was hard and loud, but it was only when he stripped every part down for inspection that he found that the 6mm torx screws holding the wings on had bent badly.
Some of my very heavy messed up big boosts with cringe worthy landings, even whilst using my big 633 wing have failed to bother my carbon bits.
so maybe any reports of recently broken masts I guess are not the latest generation of Moses carbon masts.

On the flip side of bendy masts actually bending, well this I have witnessed myself at Rhosneigr in the uk, a guy who had been inspired by a few of us foilers out in the bay he went budget and bought a full set of new kit to teach himself, he was bursting with pride and excitement, and asked me to just check over his gear to see if he had screwed it together correctly, an hour later I spotted him on the beach inspecting his gear with the board stood up on the wings and things looks weird, he was not happy and asked me could he bend the mast back straight, he had come in too close to shore and the wings bottomed out with him trying to stand on the board, he was only around 70kg,
after enquiring about this gear and the mast one shop owner confirmed that it was a common problem with the brand, but shrugged it off saying they only cost £70 a mast so no big issue.

Foil
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:44 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Local Beach: New Brighton- nr Liverpool. Open sea with big low tide lagoon
Favorite Beaches: New Brighton, Rhosneigr, Fleetwood, Newbrough
lake Como (Italy)
Style: improving kite foiler since 2017
Gear: Groove Skates 110 and 120 custom graphics and volume 2021 editions
101cm + 91cm Moses Carbon masts
Moses- 633/483 on a 701 fuse
Moses- 718 /421 on the smaller lighter kite fuse
Ozone Hyperlink V1 ultra light 5mtr
Ozone V2 Hyperlink 7mtr + 9mtr
Ozone Chrono V4 foil kite 11mtr, red
duotone click bar 2020, custom lines
duotone 2021 click bar (waiting for delivery)
ION B3 seat harness, now waiting 7 months for delivery:o
massive grin
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 255 times

Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby Foil » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:44 am

Just to add.
A difference I have experienced with my last 4 Moses carbon masts, from the last 12 months,
unlike my other 5 masts from moses from a few years ago, the newer ones have had no noise/hum/whistle to tune out, nothing at all, totally silent, unlike my early ones which needed a fair bit of attention to get them to be totally silent.
(and on close inspection the finish has really improved on my last two masts, no air holes or other tiny imperfections)
and the fuse mounting end of the mast, the 6mm screw holes where the stainless steel screw inserts can be seen, well they are now set further inside and apox 2-3 mm below the surface, not flush as they have been, remembering of course you can't actually pull out these inserts , ever! as they are part of a very large alloy fabrication set deep into the mast around 30cm deep, great to see this at the airport baggage check in X-ray scanner, just ask the guy on the X-ray screen monitor to point it out. :thumb:

BayAreaKite
Rare Poster
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:15 pm
Local Beach: Fay Bainbridge
Favorite Beaches: Squamish, Crissy, Waddell
Style: All types!
Gear: Ozone kites, Project Cedrus foil
Brand Affiliation: Owner of Adherend Innovations / Project Cedrus
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby BayAreaKite » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:57 pm

Project Cedrus is the only hollow carbon mast on the market. So it's actually significantly lighter than aluminum, and stiffer. It is the same thickness as the Axis red mast at 19mm. Despite the thickness, some claim it's faster because it gives you more control and stability at speed. Solid carbon masts are typically very thin in order to keep the weight down, but as a result they are not very stiff, because the plies on the inside do not contribute much to the moment of inertia (stiffness). Moment of inertia (I) varies with thickness^3 (thickness*thickness*thickness). If you're going to pay for a carbon mast, at least make sure it's better than aluminum. This means it should be lighter, stiffer, and stronger... or at least two of those three options!

User avatar
tegirinenashi
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 743
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:29 am
Local Beach: 3rd Ave
Gear: Bates 4000, Dominator MX-10
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby tegirinenashi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:43 pm

BayAreaKite wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:16 am
I am sorry @SMJ, but that is a gross generalization and shows a general misunderstanding of material properties. Standard modulus carbon fiber is at minimum 5x the strength of aluminum (1400MPa vs. 300MPa). It is also 18x stiffer than aluminum (125GPa vs. 6.8GPa)...
Are you sure about these numbers? To clarify, what are we comparing here, strength per weight, or strength per volume? For stiffness and strength of material at the same element wall thickness CF is 90.5/69 = 1.31 that is about 30% stiffer. Then, you can't have carbon laminate schedule in the same direction, so that you will have to have 90 degree together with 45, whereas alum is uniform, so that this 30% advantage would quickly disappear.

You are correct implying that the biggest factor is the thickness, because all materials factors being equal 19 mm mast would be stiffer than 14 mm by the factor (19/14) ^3 = 2.5 ! Apparently it is quite easy to make thick stiff mast. However, it is not easy to find the thickness info anywhere. Some vendors publish if (Axes), but many don't (Slingshot, Gong).


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests