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Imperfections Carbon Mast

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BayAreaKite
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Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby BayAreaKite » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:07 pm

You all seem to be missing the point. You say it's not rocket science, but in the same thread you comment on the carbon masts being not as stiff as aluminum and breaking when you hit something. You're right, it's not rocket science, it's basic solid mechanics... I am the first to admit this on the website! Yet all of the brands are producing carbon masts that are heavier, softer, and weaker than the aluminum masts. And the crazy thin is, people pay more for them.

@Jan:) cored structures weaken with time. Have any friends with GoFoil or Lift masts? Ever skied? What happens to your foam or wood cored skis after a couple seasons? Shear stresses break down the structure. So you're right, foam doesn't add much weight, but it's what causes the mast to soften up with time.

So is technology development and product improvement in our sport meaningless? Is that really what everyone thinks? Really surprised to read this. Like I said I didn't come here to sell masts, I came here to educate on composite structures design, but I guess there is no interest in learning about improvements in product design. Fortunately my real job is "meaningful" but it has been rewarding and fun to sell masts to customers who are grateful that I have invested hundreds of hours to design and manufacture something they love and genuinely progresses the sport.

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Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby Jan:) » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:31 pm

BayAreaKite wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:07 pm
@Jan:) cored structures weaken with time. Have any friends with GoFoil or Lift masts? Ever skied? What happens to your foam or wood cored skis after a couple seasons? Shear stresses break down the structure. So you're right, foam doesn't add much weight, but it's what causes the mast to soften up with time.
Seriously?
If the mast softens with time, its is simply not strong enough.

If you fill up your mast with EPS foam, i can assure you it will not make your mast soften up with time.
At worst it will simply not do anything at all.

BayAreaKite
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Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby BayAreaKite » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:15 pm

Jan:) wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:31 pm
BayAreaKite wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:07 pm
@Jan:) cored structures weaken with time. Have any friends with GoFoil or Lift masts? Ever skied? What happens to your foam or wood cored skis after a couple seasons? Shear stresses break down the structure. So you're right, foam doesn't add much weight, but it's what causes the mast to soften up with time.
Seriously?
If the mast softens with time, its is simply not strong enough.

If you fill up your mast with EPS foam, i can assure you it will not make your mast soften up with time.
At worst it will simply not do anything at all.
You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not going to waste any more time with you. I have spent my entire career devoted to structural design and optimization using composite materials for the biggest companies in the world. You are an internet troll who does not understand solid mechanics and worse, you don't even want to understand.

1) foam cored masts absorb far more than their weight in resin during the manufacturing process, so the foam is not negligible weight and far more than the 11g you quote. 2) Foam core absolutely degrades under the shear stresses resulting from cyclic bending. The foam cells break down and when the core loses the ability to transfer shear, the resulting tension/compression strains (due to bending) managed by the skins increase. This is exactly why nearly all brands have transitioned to wood core, which is much stronger than foam, but also a lot heavier. The wood does not degrade, and so the mast does not soften with time. Unless there is water ingress, but that is another story.

I'm done with this this thread. I will admit the big brands have improved their design and manufacturing a lot since I started Project Cedrus 3 years ago, and I am not here to trash them. I am here to to simply point out that a solid carbon mast (or wood-cored) is not going to fully maximize the weight and stiffness benefits of carbon fiber, which negates the reason for producing with it. I understand brand affinity and if you're stoked on your mast, awesome! Keep riding it. But don't trash me for choosing to spend some time trying to improve technology in our sport and reduce the environmental footprint of manufacturing, or for trying to educate and explain the engineering behind the product so you can become a more knowledgeable consumer.
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Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby windfreak74 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:13 pm

Bay area please dont leave the thead! this is interesting subject. can you share more on your experience explaining your product?
im from the fresh and frozen food bussiness and temperature diffences can make or break down the product.i have an question thet intrigues me,if the foil(carbon mast) transits from a 40 cº heaT to a cool 8 cº sea water. doesnt the mast acumulate water like froM condensation? it hollow inside, is it sealed? how do you keep from getting water acumulation inside!
tahnks!
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Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby windfreak74 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:22 pm

my mast is heavy as hell!!in the 86cm strut and strut plate is around 2.4 kgs how much does your plate and mast weigh?
does it float? or has positive flotation enven with another 2 kilos bolted to the end of the fulcrum(struT)?any standarized fuselage in carbon coming form project cedrus?what are the benefits of a heavy dense aluminum fuselage in comparison to a hollow carbon fuselage? other than weight could it achive better solid mechanics?

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Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby Breze » Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:30 pm

BayAreaKite, i think you missed the irony of Jans post, or no sense of humor?
I appreciate your work, but you are generalizing too much. 19 mm thickness.... come on

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Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby Cdog » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:40 pm

I do t get why some of you guys are giving
Bayareakite a hard time
He produce his product if you don't like it don't buy it
don't know why you need to attack the man
If it we're for guys like him pushing to make improvements
In the sport
you wouldn't have stuff like mikes lab
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Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby PrfctChaos » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:37 am

Damn trolls, can't have a civilised conversation about masts and materials without chasing knowledgeable people away.

Bayareakite obviously has a high level of knowledge and practical experience when it comes to composites and is trying to share some of that. This forum is much better off having suppliers on here sharing usefull info, instead of being pushed away by trolls.
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BayAreaKite
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Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby BayAreaKite » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:50 am

Thanks Cdog, yeah I'm not sure why things had to get personal. Why waste the time? Why not focus on something more meaningful? Would you tell a musician not to play music just because you don't like it, or tease an artist for choosing to pursue a passion that doesn't always make the most money? You must have such a meaningful and lucrative career that you can attack others for how they chose to spend their time. Good for you, Jan:)

As for your Breze, no I didn't sense any irony or humor in Jan's post. I found it to be ignorant [technically] and personally attacking. I also sense sarcasm in your comment... come on what? Cedrus is the same thickness as Axis, and I guarantee you within the next few years masts will be much thicker than they are now, because brands will finally realize that in order to control these 1m+ wingspan foils you NEED stiffness and strength which you can ONLY get with thickness. So laugh at me all you want, but Project Cedrus is ahead of the curve and the 100+ people who have purchased the mast say their wings fly better as a result. Worried about drag? Do the math, if you can. The mast a very small component of total foil drag, with most coming from the wings (parasitic AND lift-induced drag). You can increase mast drag 10-20-30% and I guarantee you won't even feel the difference with the modern large wings. Race foils, sure. That's why on the homepage of the site it says not for racing! That being said, some people who've ridden the mast say it's actually faster than thinner masts because it's stiffer and easier to control, allowing the rider to push the limits a little more. Any more ignorant, sarcastic comments from you, Breze? Or do you race at 40kts and demand a super thin mast?

Back the technology, to address weight and water ingress congress. The mast is completely sealed at each end with aluminum fittings that also serve as the mechanical interface to the board and fuselage. These aluminum parts are anodized using a very specific process and primed with a material to ensure a long-lasting bond and no galvanic corrosion. The mast is fully sealed, no water gets in or out. I suppose any moisture in the air captured during the close-out process could condense on the inside when it's really cold outside, but this water won't hurt anything and will simply re-evaporate when temps increase. We are talking micrograms of water, not enough slosh around or add any weight. Speaking of weight, the 90cm mast with plate mount is 1.2kg, which is half of whatever you are riding @windfreak. It will not float when attached to fuselage/wings, unless the wings are super bouyant. I do not make a carbon fuselage because the wing interface changes to frequently and the tooling is too expensive. Also the fuselage is simply less material, so it's harder to save weight at a justifiable cost. It also needs to have all the threaded connections and attachments to wings, and more material is necessary at these connection points to manage these interface loads.

Happy to field any additional technical questions regarding composites or mast design. But no more personal attacks or ignorant comments please.

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Re: Imperfections Carbon Mast

Postby Jan:) » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:31 am

I do not get the negativity.
Where did I attack you?

I just tried to point out, that for me personally the fact that there is no foam inside a mast, is no feature in itself.

I even get what you are trying to say, I think.

More lightweight, stiffer, longer lastig, unbreakable - all great features.

So from your posts, I get how the only way to produce a mast with all those attributes, is by making it hollow.
I have no background to judge If that is true, so the feature "hollow" is meaningless for me.

If your mast is lighter, stiffer, longer lastig and unbreakable, then you have a great product, so why not focus on that?


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