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Foil size for heavy rider

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Abaltasis
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Re: Foil size for heavy rider

Postby Abaltasis » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:59 pm

Thanks for so many answers!
Guys also..
For example when we say a 1000 sq cm foil...
it means a 800front wing and 200 stabiliser?
or 1000 front wing and we dont care about the stabilizer size?

So we need to check only about the front wing sizing?

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Re: Foil size for heavy rider

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:10 pm

Abaltasis wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:59 pm
Thanks for so many answers!
Guys also..
For example when we say a 1000 sq cm foil...
it means a 800front wing and 200 stabiliser?
or 1000 front wing and we dont care about the stabilizer size?

So we need to check only about the front wing sizing?

Correct, it is only the front wing sizing that matters.

The rear wing pulls down a bit, so not contributing to low end (on the contrary), BUT, in the very "pop the wing up" moment, it actually lifts - so can help here...
But bigger stab is also more drag.
Dont worry about the rear stab, only the front wing sizing.

If you have a high span narrow frontwing (high aspect), it will have more lift for the same area, but be slightly trickier regarding stall, and dont turn as narrow - but it can ride in less wind.
Dont think much about this either.

8) Peter

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Re: Foil size for heavy rider

Postby Abaltasis » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:00 am

Ok so check this out...
As a friend of mine bought a surfboard from them some years back and it was good, i am thinking of buying the Gong Catch board.
Mainly for the price, as its my first foil i dont want to break the bank.

So.. they state this on their website about the board size...
The small 4’0 x 20L and 4’2 x 21L allow those with a high technical level or a small build to have maximum performance and freedom.
The 4’4 x 25L and the 4’6 x 30L are more generous in lift and are aimed at beginner to intermediate levels, or heavier riders of a confirmed level in search of comfort.
The 4’8 x 37L is very generous for kiting and is aimed at beginner levels, or riders of strong build who want ease in transitions.

Ok from this i could think that for a beginner the bigger the better.
Then i see the North Scoop that is 120*46cm with 15.3 L volume.
And the cabrinha special agent at 125*42,5cm with very low volume.
Then the slingshot dwarfcraft (i dont remember the exact sizing - the bigger one) had a volume at around 20L stating that is for beginners.
All these companies state that with around 15-20 volume size can be used from beginners.

I also know that all advanced riders nowdays use very small foilboards compared to some years back.
I am sure most of you also are probably on 1 meter boards..

So what about Gong?
Is it just wrong marketing?
Is the board somewhat different shape than others? (I dont think so)
Why they want to get beginners to take a 143cm board with 37L volume?

Isnt going to be to big after 4-5 sessions?
Just like those 40cm masts? (Which after 2-3 sessions you would go to the longer)

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Re: Foil size for heavy rider

Postby azoele » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:17 am

Just my experience, with a weight similar to yours (105 or so).

I am using a Gong Curve Pro L, with a Surf stabilizer 45cm, and a 100cm mast.
This combo has enormeous lift and exceptional stability: you can ride it very slowly (that would be about 8knots or so) with no stalling, and flying transitions are made easier by how "sedated" the foil is.
This is not to say it is boring at all, though: it is my setup for ultra light winds, *and* for waves (yesterday 20 knots, and 1.5/2m waves). It takes some muscling to turn very tightly, but not a problem at over 100Kg :D Plus, it till navigate through large foam patches admirably, and won't accelerate too quickly making you run too much forward of the wave.
If you feel adventurous, Gong sells the full carbon setup (100cm carbon mast, L Pro wing), and they include only the *kite 40cm* stab (because Beryl, their in-house phenomenon, "prefers it that way for agility...). I own that combo, and that makes the foil much more lively in turns, but it gets quite a bit more technical. Also, at very low speeds, the stab will stall a lot quicker than the front, which will make the foil point up getting you an extra kick in instant lift. First time, it kicked me up in the air over the foil :D

Note on the L Pro: the lift is very big. I can get on the foil practically from a standstill if needed. So it is not one of those foils requiring speed to lift you up.
On the other hand, simply get your back foot nearer to the front, and you'll have neutered much of the lift :D

My second setup is a Veloce M front wing and a different stabilizer (kite 45cm: never could find a Veloce stab in stock...).
The Veloce has way less lift at slow speeds, and the foil is "wobbly" under your feet. It is a fun feeling because it glides faster on average than the Curve wings, but (at least with my kite stabilizer) it is very sensitive to Yaw.
My top speed has been 19.2 on both setups. The Curve makes much resistance at that speed, while the Veloce is difficult (for me) to control (possibly because both front wing and stabilizer are "flat"?)

Best comment I can make: on the L Pro I enjoy my ride, progress, learn, and have fun.
On the Veloce I always go out grinning, but exhausted, and with lots of falls in complex conditions!
If conditions are tough, I just take the L Pro because if conditions are difficult, no point in making it even more difficult just for the sake of it :D

Pick your poison :D
(but I'm super happy of the L Pro + Surf 45cm; beware the Surf 40 stabilizer: it's behaviour for lift is more akin to the Kite stabs than the Surf 45).

Lastly: boards.
I own 3: a Groove Skate L (130cm), a Skate Pro (115), and a custom carbon volume-less board (127).
Loved the custom, because it is light (2.4kg) and reactive. Loving the Skate Pro, because it is even better, and a godsend in waves.
But tell you the truth: when I use the Skate L (largest they do), I still have a *great* ride in normal (not too much wave) conditions.
Also beware: the smaller the board, the more reactive it will be, making transitions and turns faster, but also requiring better technique and more commitment.
Gong makes a small Catch board (130cm), which is same size of my Skate L, even lighter at 2.9Kg.
They "reserve" that size for "experts" (although I began with the Skate L). On the one hand, my experience would make me differ.
On the other: Gong are very, very straightforward and honest with their appraisal of their own equipment, so I'd trust their judgement...

P.S.
I agree wholeheartedly with Peter_Frank, both about wind strength and kiter weight (he explained it much better than I could), and about the importance of the stabilizer in the setup.

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Re: Foil size for heavy rider

Postby Kamikuza » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:46 am

Abaltasis wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:00 am
Ok so check this out...
As a friend of mine bought a surfboard from them some years back and it was good, i am thinking of buying the Gong Catch board.
Mainly for the price, as its my first foil i dont want to break the bank.

So.. they state this on their website about the board size...
The small 4’0 x 20L and 4’2 x 21L allow those with a high technical level or a small build to have maximum performance and freedom.
The 4’4 x 25L and the 4’6 x 30L are more generous in lift and are aimed at beginner to intermediate levels, or heavier riders of a confirmed level in search of comfort.
The 4’8 x 37L is very generous for kiting and is aimed at beginner levels, or riders of strong build who want ease in transitions.

Ok from this i could think that for a beginner the bigger the better.
Then i see the North Scoop that is 120*46cm with 15.3 L volume.
And the cabrinha special agent at 125*42,5cm with very low volume.
Then the slingshot dwarfcraft (i dont remember the exact sizing - the bigger one) had a volume at around 20L stating that is for beginners.
All these companies state that with around 15-20 volume size can be used from beginners.

I also know that all advanced riders nowdays use very small foilboards compared to some years back.
I am sure most of you also are probably on 1 meter boards..

So what about Gong?
Is it just wrong marketing?
Is the board somewhat different shape than others? (I dont think so)
Why they want to get beginners to take a 143cm board with 37L volume?

Isnt going to be to big after 4-5 sessions?
Just like those 40cm masts? (Which after 2-3 sessions you would go to the longer)
Board is irrelevant once you're up on the foil, and my personal philosophy is less is more -- big boards just create swing weight and take away from the freedom of the foiling experience ... which is why I'm so puzzled by the popularity of wing foiling ...

Slingshot Dwardcraft 4'6" is a great board for learning, probably keep you happy until you're doing foiling feet changes. IIRC they're a bit less wide than other boards of the same length, which is IMO a good thing.

Special Agent and other TT-thickness boards are fine too. Everyone manages to learn on a TT and you don't have a wing providing lift.

It's my hypothesis that big, high-volume boards actually slow down your learning, because you're not forced to keep on the foil or maintain board speed when you're learning to swap your feet.

So yeah they're completely unnecessary, AND they instill a false sense of security for learning.

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Re: Foil size for heavy rider

Postby GJibb » Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:48 am

azoele wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:17 am

(but I'm super happy of the L Pro + Surf 45cm; beware the Surf 40 stabilizer: it's behaviour for lift is more akin to the Kite stabs than the Surf 45).
I have a question regarding the surf 40 stab but i need to give relevant info prior
I bought a gong foil last year (before the name changes). I have not been out on it yet due to multiple factors. As in, I have a total of probably 2-3 hours foiling attempts through the last 4-5 years
MY foil came with a "Rise" Medium front wing and a 40cm "Surf" rear stab
The foils now come with the Surf 45 stabs (the other thing is the choice in front wing size where I was only offered the Medium.)

Does that stab make a noticeable difference in the riding of the foil

MY GOAL is to foil with the smallest kites possible in whichever situation and mostly just carvy putting around. So high lift and slow speeds are my intent. Im ENTIRELY content "mowing the lawn"

I have no issue spending the $150 CAD getting the bigger stab, im equally happy getting bigger front wings aswell (like the pro L).

would it make the learning curve "easier" getting the bigger stab or should I just learn with what I have and see what I like once having some experience?

Thanks

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Re: Foil size for heavy rider

Postby bragnouff » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:46 am

It's my hypothesis that big, high-volume boards actually slow down your learning, because you're not forced to keep on the foil or maintain board speed when you're learning to swap your feet.

So yeah they're completely unnecessary, AND they instill a false sense of security for learning.
yes, but big high volume boards add a level of forgiveness that is more than welcome when conditions are messy, going over whitewater, etc... On flat water I can happily ride my foil-wakeskate, but when I'm riding on the ocean side, with the odd touchdowns, it's good to not get punished every time, and focus on what matters.
My board is 4'8 / 36L and I don't feel like the swing weight is much of an issue.

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Re: Foil size for heavy rider

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:17 am

bragnouff wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:46 am

It's my hypothesis that big, high-volume boards actually slow down your learning, because you're not forced to keep on the foil or maintain board speed when you're learning to swap your feet.

So yeah they're completely unnecessary, AND they instill a false sense of security for learning.
yes, but big high volume boards add a level of forgiveness that is more than welcome when conditions are messy, going over whitewater, etc... On flat water I can happily ride my foil-wakeskate, but when I'm riding on the ocean side, with the odd touchdowns, it's good to not get punished every time, and focus on what matters.
My board is 4'8 / 36L and I don't feel like the swing weight is much of an issue.
I'll concede that conditions come into play, but that's it :D having used the Double Agent, a "high-volume" board, and a Dwarfcraft 3'5" in the same conditions at the beach, I'm still convinced it's not a huge component of the equation.

The difference in swing weight between 125 and 110 bugs me so I can't agree on that at all :lol:

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Re: Foil size for heavy rider

Postby papasmerf » Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:37 am

azoele wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:17 am
Just my experience, with a weight similar to yours (105 or so).

I am using a Gong Curve Pro L, with a Surf stabilizer 45cm, and a 100cm mast.
This combo has enormeous lift and exceptional stability: you can ride it very slowly (that would be about 8knots or so) with no stalling, and flying transitions are made easier by how "sedated" the foil is.
This is not to say it is boring at all, though: it is my setup for ultra light winds, *and* for waves (yesterday 20 knots, and 1.5/2m waves). It takes some muscling to turn very tightly, but not a problem at over 100Kg :D Plus, it till navigate through large foam patches admirably, and won't accelerate too quickly making you run too much forward of the wave.
If you feel adventurous, Gong sells the full carbon setup (100cm carbon mast, L Pro wing), and they include only the *kite 40cm* stab (because Beryl, their in-house phenomenon, "prefers it that way for agility...). I own that combo, and that makes the foil much more lively in turns, but it gets quite a bit more technical. Also, at very low speeds, the stab will stall a lot quicker than the front, which will make the foil point up getting you an extra kick in instant lift. First time, it kicked me up in the air over the foil :D

Note on the L Pro: the lift is very big. I can get on the foil practically from a standstill if needed. So it is not one of those foils requiring speed to lift you up.
On the other hand, simply get your back foot nearer to the front, and you'll have neutered much of the lift :D

My second setup is a Veloce M front wing and a different stabilizer (kite 45cm: never could find a Veloce stab in stock...).
The Veloce has way less lift at slow speeds, and the foil is "wobbly" under your feet. It is a fun feeling because it glides faster on average than the Curve wings, but (at least with my kite stabilizer) it is very sensitive to Yaw.
My top speed has been 19.2 on both setups. The Curve makes much resistance at that speed, while the Veloce is difficult (for me) to control (possibly because both front wing and stabilizer are "flat"?)

Best comment I can make: on the L Pro I enjoy my ride, progress, learn, and have fun.
On the Veloce I always go out grinning, but exhausted, and with lots of falls in complex conditions!
If conditions are tough, I just take the L Pro because if conditions are difficult, no point in making it even more difficult just for the sake of it :D

Pick your poison :D
(but I'm super happy of the L Pro + Surf 45cm; beware the Surf 40 stabilizer: it's behaviour for lift is more akin to the Kite stabs than the Surf 45).

Lastly: boards.
I own 3: a Groove Skate L (130cm), a Skate Pro (115), and a custom carbon volume-less board (127).
Loved the custom, because it is light (2.4kg) and reactive. Loving the Skate Pro, because it is even better, and a godsend in waves.
But tell you the truth: when I use the Skate L (largest they do), I still have a *great* ride in normal (not too much wave) conditions.
Also beware: the smaller the board, the more reactive it will be, making transitions and turns faster, but also requiring better technique and more commitment.
Gong makes a small Catch board (130cm), which is same size of my Skate L, even lighter at 2.9Kg.
They "reserve" that size for "experts" (although I began with the Skate L). On the one hand, my experience would make me differ.
On the other: Gong are very, very straightforward and honest with their appraisal of their own equipment, so I'd trust their judgement...

P.S.
I agree wholeheartedly with Peter_Frank, both about wind strength and kiter weight (he explained it much better than I could), and about the importance of the stabilizer in the setup.
the whole Gong thing was super confusing to me, I sent emails and the answers confused me even more. my friend really likes his gong stuff though. I went a less confusing route for me.

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Re: Foil size for heavy rider

Postby bragnouff » Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:22 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:17 am
bragnouff wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:46 am

It's my hypothesis that big, high-volume boards actually slow down your learning, because you're not forced to keep on the foil or maintain board speed when you're learning to swap your feet.

So yeah they're completely unnecessary, AND they instill a false sense of security for learning.
yes, but big high volume boards add a level of forgiveness that is more than welcome when conditions are messy, going over whitewater, etc... On flat water I can happily ride my foil-wakeskate, but when I'm riding on the ocean side, with the odd touchdowns, it's good to not get punished every time, and focus on what matters.
My board is 4'8 / 36L and I don't feel like the swing weight is much of an issue.
I'll concede that conditions come into play, but that's it :D having used the Double Agent, a "high-volume" board, and a Dwarfcraft 3'5" in the same conditions at the beach, I'm still convinced it's not a huge component of the equation.

The difference in swing weight between 125 and 110 bugs me so I can't agree on that at all :lol:
I guess the foil underneath also dictates the threshold of gains and diminishing returns. Or maybe I haven't tried a good tiny board yet, that would make me revise my opinion on swing weight. I'd have to try your 110 when you're allowed to come over... Anyway my point is that once your swing weight is contained and feels manageable (according to rider's weight, height and stance), and once it fits easily in the car, then going smaller doesn't seem to really provide tangible benefits, while losing some points on quite a few other fronts: light wind, forgiveness to sloppy riding or to messy conditions, ability to rescue and paddle back to shore, ability to surf foil on it, ability to wingfoil on it (working on it), ...
And since we're all different in terms of requirements and local conditions, it's kind of hard to come up with a rule that works for everyone. There's plenty to do already with a reasonably sized foil under a reasonably sized board.

I'd finish on a note, that foiling seems to exacerbate the gear-freak-ness that resides within us, and at some stage, it's probably best to not think too much about the gear and spend more time on the water instead.
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