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Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

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nothing2seehere
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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby nothing2seehere » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:35 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:54 am
Trent hink wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:25 pm
I learned and got my very first few tries mostly on a Naish (surf, maybe it was called the thruster?) set-up maybe a few years ago.
That was the same as the LF Fun Foil, which was my first foil too. Then I got a Slingshot HoverGlide and that was a ton heavier. Then the moment I picked up the Axis kitefoil I knew I'd buy it cos it was so much lighter :lol:
Trent hink wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:25 pm
a properly engineered and manufactured carbon strut will be lighter and stiffer than anything you might get in aluminum
That myth just won't die will it :cry:
Might have missed this but why is it a myth? Is it the light AND stiff bit? I'm sure I read one of the project Cedrus blog posts where he measured the stiffness of a bunch of aluminium masts to understand what he was up against in terms of competition. I notice that the Cedrus masts are not dramatically lighter than aluminium masts though they are claimed to be substantially stiffer.

I gather the Axis kit is good (difficult to get where I live) but I'm sure the numbers (for weight) I saw looked about the same as the Shinn foil gear. Having picked up the carbon Shinn mast, you can feel the difference in weight and I'm willing to believe that the carbon version is stiffer.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:29 pm

nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:35 am
Might have missed this but why is it a myth? Is it the light AND stiff bit? I'm sure I read one of the project Cedrus blog posts where he measured the stiffness of a bunch of aluminium masts to understand what he was up against in terms of competition. I notice that the Cedrus masts are not dramatically lighter than aluminium masts though they are claimed to be substantially stiffer.

I gather the Axis kit is good (difficult to get where I live) but I'm sure the numbers (for weight) I saw looked about the same as the Shinn foil gear. Having picked up the carbon Shinn mast, you can feel the difference in weight and I'm willing to believe that the carbon version is stiffer.
Yeah, light AND stiff is a myth for masts. You can have one or the other but not both at the same time...but apparently the flex is tuned for optimal something something. I'm not convinced ... yet.

Project Cedrus still isn't as stiff as some Axis masts, which I bring up because when they popped up here, I went looking and when I asked Axis about the "as stiff as Axis masts" from the PC webpage, the reply I got mentioned that they were in contact with Axis and was "surprised" at how much stiffer the 19mm mast was. So depends what they're comparing them too of course...

From a few pages back: "They had some tests done at the engineering department at a university: Taking the original Axis 15mm thick mast as the baseline, the carbon mast is 110% stiffer, the new 16mm 136%, and the 19mm is 224% stiffer."

The Axis carbon mast is (was?) 68 layers of pre-preg carbon, not foam or wood core wrap, and was only a little lighter than the 16mm mast. But I don't know if that included the plate and Doodad ...

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, even at what, 8 times the price, but I've yet to see anything to change my mind that's it's actually worth it.
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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby frequentflyer » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:30 pm

I recently bought a new foil and intentionally went with aluminum for my mast. Everything else is carbon, but I went with the aluminum for two reasons: 1. It is stiffer than its carbon cousin for the brand that I bought and 2. I want my board to track downwind. I can’t believe nobody’s brought this up yet. The carbon cousin is only slightly lighter, but enough so that it floats. My current setup floats for a while but then the mast sinks and it comes downwind. Perfect. Given the brand I went with, I wouldn’t “upgrade” to carbon even if it were the same price.
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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Flyboy » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:39 pm

I recently ordered a new Gong Carbon mast. Assuming I eventually actually receive it, it will be an interesting comparison to their (previous generation) alu mast. Gong have elected to use an integrated mast/fuselage (like Go Foil). The advantage of this in terms of stiffness is obvious. Aluminum mast may be be inherently stiff, but the connection between the mast & the fuselage is subject to flex. I notice that Gong has beefed up both their new alu masts AND the new carbon masts - something that other brands have also done - presumably at the cost of added weight. It will be interesting to see how much difference - on the water - this makes.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby OzBungy » Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:05 am

frequentflyer wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:30 pm
I recently bought a new foil and intentionally went with aluminum for my mast. Everything else is carbon, but I went with the aluminum for two reasons: 1. It is stiffer than its carbon cousin for the brand that I bought and 2. I want my board to track downwind. ...
Good luck with that. The only time I have ever had a problem with a board escaping is when I have crashed my kite, got separated from the board, and the kite did not relaunch immediately. It almost relaunched but after a couple of minutes trying it settled on the water. By then the board had drifter out of reach. No matter how fast I swam I could not catch it.

The first time the board made it to the beach just in front of me. It was sitting in the shore break bouncing up and down on some rocks. Fortunately, being carbon, I was able to sand out the scratches and paint it and it was good as new. :D

The second time the board got way ahead of me. I had to self rescue with the kite. I followed the board and we both came ashore at the same beach downwind. I saw a helpful person retrieve my board and put it safely up on the beach. When I got to shore the police were waiting just to make sure I was ok. I told them I was in no real danger. Self rescue is a well practiced skill. :-?

I "might" downgrade to aluminium if I wanted to mix and match components and fiddle about. I prefer to set up and ride. Carbon and deep tuttle for me. Some variation on one piece foil and fuselage is preferable. Zero aluminium is essential.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Flyboy » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:11 am

OzBungy wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:05 am
frequentflyer wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:30 pm
I recently bought a new foil and intentionally went with aluminum for my mast. Everything else is carbon, but I went with the aluminum for two reasons: 1. It is stiffer than its carbon cousin for the brand that I bought and 2. I want my board to track downwind. ...
Good luck with that. The only time I have ever had a problem with a board escaping is when I have crashed my kite, got separated from the board, and the kite did not relaunch immediately. It almost relaunched but after a couple of minutes trying it settled on the water. By then the board had drifter out of reach. No matter how fast I swam I could not catch it.

The first time the board made it to the beach just in front of me. It was sitting in the shore break bouncing up and down on some rocks. Fortunately, being carbon, I was able to sand out the scratches and paint it and it was good as new. :D

The second time the board got way ahead of me. I had to self rescue with the kite. I followed the board and we both came ashore at the same beach downwind. I saw a helpful person retrieve my board and put it safely up on the beach. When I got to shore the police were waiting just to make sure I was ok. I told them I was in no real danger. Self rescue is a well practiced skill. :-?

I "might" downgrade to aluminium if I wanted to mix and match components and fiddle about. I prefer to set up and ride. Carbon and deep tuttle for me. Some variation on one piece foil and fuselage is preferable. Zero aluminium is essential.
Yeah, well 95% of the time having the board track downwind makes life easier. The other 5% it's a problem. I had the same scenario a few weeks ago. Put my 4m Peak4 in the water, spent a couple of minutes trying to relaunch it by which time the board had drifted too far downwind to catch. Had to gather up the Peak & swim in with it. Water was 6 C & the air was 10 C. Manageable, but alarming to the folks on the shore. I'm not sure what the answer is: you need to focus on relaunching immediately ... if you fail, you lose the board. Not sure how much difference a carbon foil makes? It surely still drifts downwind, just more slowly?

Aluminium doesn't get any more beaten up in the shore break in my experience - it's the wing & stabilizer that gets smacked around, not the mast or fuselage.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby leeuwen » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:57 am

Flyboy wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:11 am
if you fail, you lose the board. Not sure how much difference a carbon foil makes? It surely still drifts downwind, just more slowly?
Depends a bit on the situation but on flat-ish water my carbon setup is likely to end up on its side and stay that way pretty much indefinitely.
Side vs foil down makes a HUGE difference, on its side it *feels* like it stays pretty much in place although in reality it probably does drift a bit.
Sometimes that is great (no foil torpedoing into your lines/kite) and other times its inconvenient because crashing usually means a little bit of body dragging or a few swimming strokes.
I could see a situation where the board just stays upwind on its side and you are not able to reach it for e.g. a self-rescue or requires a significant amount of swimming after pack up to get back to the board.

Not sure what happens with a significant amount of waves if that flips the foil back to down position never been out above +-30cm "waves" yet.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Flyboy » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:21 am

leeuwen wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:57 am


Depends a bit on the situation but on flat-ish water my carbon setup is likely to end up on its side and stay that way pretty much indefinitely.
Side vs foil down makes a HUGE difference, on its side it *feels* like it stays pretty much in place although in reality it probably does drift a bit.
Sometimes that is great (no foil torpedoing into your lines/kite) and other times its inconvenient because crashing usually means a little bit of body dragging or a few swimming strokes.
I could see a situation where the board just stays upwind on its side and you are not able to reach it for e.g. a self-rescue or requires a significant amount of swimming after pack up to get back to the board.

Not sure what happens with a significant amount of waves if that flips the foil back to down position never been out above +-30cm "waves" yet.
I had a (super light) carbon foil a while ago. As far as I remember it would end up foil down, although possibly more slowly. However, it had a small front wing - all carbon with no foam core & no volume to it at all. I imagine larger surf wings are more likely to float.
Last edited by Flyboy on Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby leeuwen » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:07 am

Flyboy wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:21 am
leeuwen wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:57 am
Depends a bit on the situation but on flat-ish water my carbon setup is likely to end up on its side and stay that way pretty much indefinitely.
I imagine larger surfer wings are more likely to float.
Yes, I have a 633 wing, not sure how relevant the board is but I have groove skate 120cm (carbon/polystyrene so light with a bit of volume).
Pretty much never returns to foil down position unless its already halfway there.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:34 am

Flyboy wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:39 pm
the connection between the mast & the fuselage is subject to flex
Depends how they do it, I guess. Using a tongue-in-groove type join will eliminate that I reckon. As will a big, wide connection into the wings...


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