Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6839
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 159 times
Been thanked: 155 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Kamikuza » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:26 am

Flyboy wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:51 am
On the water the carbon performs the way you would expect: it feels more solid & stable than the alu foil.
See, I'd expect the opposite based on the data :lol:

User avatar
Ulrik
Medium Poster
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 1:00 am
Style: Freeride, Hydrofoil,Waveriding
Gear: Shinn BronQ CRB4
Groove Skate 130,
Nobile Kite skim
Kitech FreeRS
Naish Pivot
Gong Unik
GONG KITEFOIL ALLVATOR FREEWAVE
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Ulrik » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:51 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:26 am
Flyboy wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:51 am
On the water the carbon performs the way you would expect: it feels more solid & stable than the alu foil.
See, I'd expect the opposite based on the data :lol:
Maybe the mast is a carbon/placebo mix :lol:

User avatar
Flyboy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2141
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 139 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Flyboy » Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:30 pm

Ulrik wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:51 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:26 am
Flyboy wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:51 am
On the water the carbon performs the way you would expect: it feels more solid & stable than the alu foil.
See, I'd expect the opposite based on the data :lol:
Maybe the mast is a carbon/placebo mix :lol:
Yes, I asked myself if it feels more solid & stable because I expect it to feel more solid & stable. :-?

However ... I'm pretty sure it is actually more solid & stable. It is (a little) shorter than the alu mast, but it is really dramatically wider. There's definitely much less flex in the mast than a longer, thinner carbon mast. And the connection between the mast & the fuselage is obviously much more solid than it is in the old Gong alu set up.

Gong have also introduced a wider alu mast with a more solid mast fuselage connection.I think for Gong (& other brands) to go this route - at some additional cost & trouble - is an indication that the wider mast makes sense from a performance perspective. More time on the foil will reveal more.

User avatar
MattyM
Medium Poster
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:29 pm
Gear: Core, F-One, Moses
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby MattyM » Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:48 pm

Look at what the Americas Cup uses. everything percolates down from there.

User avatar
Flyboy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2141
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 139 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Flyboy » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:11 pm

MattyM wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:48 pm
Look at what the Americas Cup uses. everything percolates down from there.
No idea what that really means? Americas Cup boats have completely different design & performance parameters than a simple kite foil. And the discussion here is about "Cost vs Benefit" - the cost/benefit equation for the average kite foiler is likely to be somewhat different than what it is for Larry Ellison.

grigorib
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3146
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana; SPI; Hood River; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, Turbine 9/13m, SST 4/5m, UFO 5/7/9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses/RDB 70/90/91/101cm masts with 1200/860/800/730/600 wings and 310/230/425 stabilizers, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 100, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot Turbine 9/13m, 70cm mast

Follow me on https://Instagram.com/grigorib7
.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 294 times
Been thanked: 425 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby grigorib » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:35 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:11 pm
MattyM wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:48 pm
Look at what the Americas Cup uses. everything percolates down from there.
No idea what that really means? Americas Cup boats have completely different design & performance parameters than a simple kite foil. And the discussion here is about "Cost vs Benefit" - the cost/benefit equation for the average kite foiler is likely to be somewhat different than what it is for Larry Ellison.
Yup. We’re way more efficient on cost/benefit level. Investing few thousand and ride a lot of not more than guys do. They get sponsors and coverage but we have day jobs or are retired so win+win

User avatar
Flyboy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2141
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 139 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Flyboy » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:54 pm

grigorib wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:35 pm
Flyboy wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:11 pm
MattyM wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:48 pm
Look at what the Americas Cup uses. everything percolates down from there.
No idea what that really means? Americas Cup boats have completely different design & performance parameters than a simple kite foil. And the discussion here is about "Cost vs Benefit" - the cost/benefit equation for the average kite foiler is likely to be somewhat different than what it is for Larry Ellison.
Yup. We’re way more efficient on cost/benefit level. Investing few thousand and ride a lot of not more than guys do.
That goes without saying ... but I'm really talking about something different: the Americas Cup boats are designed to be as fast as possible on all points of sail. In that sense they are like race kite foils. But the majority of people kite foiling are not racing & what they are looking for is not necessarily speed around a race course. The Americas Cup teams will spend huge sums to squeeze a little more speed out of the boats, that's not the goal of most kite foilers.

My (limited) experience with carbon & aluminum masts suggests that there is a modest advantage to a carbon set up. It's not really proportional to the added cost (except if you're racing or jumping), but given that you're spending quite a lot of time with your foil, it's still justifiable.

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6839
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 159 times
Been thanked: 155 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:29 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:30 pm
Ulrik wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:51 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:26 am

See, I'd expect the opposite based on the data :lol:
Maybe the mast is a carbon/placebo mix :lol:
Yes, I asked myself if it feels more solid & stable because I expect it to feel more solid & stable. :-?

However ... I'm pretty sure it is actually more solid & stable. It is (a little) shorter than the alu mast, but it is really dramatically wider. There's definitely much less flex in the mast than a longer, thinner carbon mast. And the connection between the mast & the fuselage is obviously much more solid than it is in the old Gong alu set up.

Gong have also introduced a wider alu mast with a more solid mast fuselage connection.I think for Gong (& other brands) to go this route - at some additional cost & trouble - is an indication that the wider mast makes sense from a performance perspective. More time on the foil will reveal more.
So now I'm wondering what the chord etc of your previous mast is 😁

Here's off-cuts from the LF mast, and the Axis 19mm mast. A few year's development difference...
DEE6ACFD-610E-45AC-9411-FE2713BFAED0.jpeg

User avatar
Flyboy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2141
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 139 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Flyboy » Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:52 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:29 pm
Flyboy wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:30 pm
Ulrik wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:51 am


Maybe the mast is a carbon/placebo mix :lol:
Yes, I asked myself if it feels more solid & stable because I expect it to feel more solid & stable. :-?

However ... I'm pretty sure it is actually more solid & stable. It is (a little) shorter than the alu mast, but it is really dramatically wider. There's definitely much less flex in the mast than a longer, thinner carbon mast. And the connection between the mast & the fuselage is obviously much more solid than it is in the old Gong alu set up.

Gong have also introduced a wider alu mast with a more solid mast fuselage connection.I think for Gong (& other brands) to go this route - at some additional cost & trouble - is an indication that the wider mast makes sense from a performance perspective. More time on the foil will reveal more.
So now I'm wondering what the chord etc of your previous mast is 😁

Here's off-cuts from the LF mast, and the Axis 19mm mast. A few year's development difference...

DEE6ACFD-610E-45AC-9411-FE2713BFAED0.jpeg
I already posted a picture of the two masts. The alu mast cord is 4 1/8", the carbon mast cord is 6" up by the plate, tapering to 5 1/8" above the fuselage.

Another session yesterday. Again light wind. I'm a little less convinced that there's much of a difference in stability. The foil still makes little wobbles in the water, which makes me think this has more to do with pressure difference under the water than the composition of the foil.

Bottom line: it seems to me that the cost vs benefit is an open question. It's nice to have a lighter foil, but in practice the weight is barely noticeable when riding. More important is to get a decent foil & just get riding.

grigorib
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3146
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana; SPI; Hood River; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, Turbine 9/13m, SST 4/5m, UFO 5/7/9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses/RDB 70/90/91/101cm masts with 1200/860/800/730/600 wings and 310/230/425 stabilizers, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 100, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot Turbine 9/13m, 70cm mast

Follow me on https://Instagram.com/grigorib7
.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 294 times
Been thanked: 425 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby grigorib » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:34 pm

There’s difference in riding lighter foil in at least two aspects:
- jumping with a foil (I don’t jump with a foil, but folks say jumping with heavy is not good)
- inertia of heavy setup. Getting hit with heavy foil hurts way more. Felt this one personally

The main question is: is $400-700 difference in cost of carbon justifies it for you?
Or simulations: what would make you switch from carbon to aluminum? For a while my short mast was aluminum because for how rarely I needed short mast I didn’t want to spend extra cash.

Right now with Lift or RDB carbon masts retailing at/under $600…good luck persuading me to own aluminum mast again. But for many getting aluminum setup is still saving a lot of money they can spend on something more beneficial


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests