Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
Oldman_Dave
Medium Poster
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 4:16 am
Gear: Ozone Edge & Zephyr kites
Nobile Board
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Oldman_Dave » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:56 am

If my recall of tech talks are correct, the axis carbon mast is only 15% lighter than the equivalent Aly. This weight saving occurs because you can vary the width of the carbon mast and make it beefier where it's needed (at the top) whereas Aly can only extruded in a uniform shape. The carbon has slightly more spring and is apparently a livelier feel.

I've always been happy the carbon masts, however I'm looking to buy the carbon with my next upgrade order. Why? Because I'm happy with the brand and happy with my preferred length and so I'll pay the extra to save that 15% and be on the best gear I can. Upgraditis I suppose.

sonny2727
Medium Poster
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:21 pm
Gear: North, Ozone, Taaroa, Shinn, Flysurfer, Moses
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby sonny2727 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:43 am

jumptheshark wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:09 am
sonny2727 wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:41 pm
.this is not 2010 when people are figuring out stuff
Have aluminum masts evolved much?

I mean masts in general haven’t really changed much. Carbon was figured out a while ago too.
Only in 2019 Moses built wood core masts..that partly explain the wobbly old Moses masts

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6783
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 154 times
Been thanked: 147 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:02 am

jumptheshark wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:09 am
Have aluminum masts evolved much?

I mean masts in general haven’t really changed much. Carbon was figured out a while ago too.
Not a lot to play with. Profile, wall thickness, internal bracing, chord length... I think the latest crop are actually properly engineered and not just left over louvers :lol:

airsail
Frequent Poster
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:57 am
Weight: 80kg
Local Beach: Queens Beach North, Queensland, Australia
Favorite Beaches: Queens North, I don’t travel much
Style: Foiling
Gear: Sonic 3 15mtr, Soul 10 mtr, BRM Clouds 8, 6.2, 4.8, 3.7
Lift, Naish and Levitaz foils
Carbonco and home build boards
Ozone and Duotone wings
Naish Hover 95 foilboard
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 99 times
Been thanked: 64 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby airsail » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:56 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:02 am
jumptheshark wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:09 am
Have aluminum masts evolved much?

I mean masts in general haven’t really changed much. Carbon was figured out a while ago too.
Not a lot to play with. Profile, wall thickness, internal bracing, chord length... I think the latest crop are actually properly engineered and not just left over louvers :lol:
Naish went out on a limb last year and made a very thin wall mast, but with no internal bracing and bonded ends, they had some failures. This year, S26 alloys have internal webs and foam filled, they are lighter than the carbon and composite offerings but expensive as they come complete with bonded base and lower plates.
But their composite masts are almost the same price so unless you chasing the lightest mast why would you bother.

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6783
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 154 times
Been thanked: 147 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:06 pm

Oldman_Dave wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:56 am
If my recall of tech talks are correct, the axis carbon mast is only 15% lighter than the equivalent Aly. This weight saving occurs because you can vary the width of the carbon mast and make it beefier where it's needed (at the top) whereas Aly can only extruded in a uniform shape. The carbon has slightly more spring and is apparently a livelier feel.

I've always been happy the carbon masts, however I'm looking to buy the carbon with my next upgrade order. Why? Because I'm happy with the brand and happy with my preferred length and so I'll pay the extra to save that 15% and be on the best gear I can. Upgraditis I suppose.
Unless they've changed production methods, the Axis carbon masts are 68 layers of pre-preg.

They had some tests done at the engineering department at a university:
Taking the original Axis 15mm thick mast as the baseline, the carbon mast is 110% stiffer, the 16mm 136%, and the 19mm is 224% stiffer. I was happy enough on the 75cm 16mm mast, but for longevity I went with the 19mm...

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6783
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 154 times
Been thanked: 147 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:09 pm

airsail wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:56 am
Naish went out on a limb last year and made a very thin wall mast, but with no internal bracing and bonded ends, they had some failures. This year, S26 alloys have internal webs and foam filled, they are lighter than the carbon and composite offerings but expensive as they come complete with bonded base and lower plates.
But their composite masts are almost the same price so unless you chasing the lightest mast why would you bother.
Is that the same company that was doing mixed carbon/alu masts? They were the same price as carbon too, but lighter than aluminum and stiffer than carbon.

Now the cat's out of the bag -- Naish and NP were the two brands I saw with folded masts.

User avatar
FLandOBX
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 1:58 am
Local Beach: Hatteras Island, North Carolina, USA
Central Florida, USA
Style: Freestyle, Airstyle, Hydrofoil
Gear: Cabrinha Apollo, FS Speed 4, FS Soul, Axis Ltd 132, RRD Poison 135, SS Ankle Biter, Moses 679 & 590, LF Galaxy 4'2"
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 145 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby FLandOBX » Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:02 pm

grigorib wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:07 pm
...Short RDB 90/70cm masts which I ride are stiff.
RDB and Lift carbon masts are $600 shipped....
Grigory, does RDB have a U.S. distributor or do you buy direct from the manufacturer?

grigorib
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3042
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana; SPI; Hood River; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, Turbine 9/13m, SST 4/5/7m, UFO 5/7/9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses/RDB 70/90/91/101cm masts with 1200/860/800/695/730/600/637 wings and 310/273/230/425/420 stabilizers, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 100, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot Turbine 9/13m, Rally 7m, SST 7m, W695 wing, 273 sq.cm stabilizer, 70cm mast
.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 274 times
Been thanked: 394 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby grigorib » Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:04 pm

FLandOBX wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:02 pm
grigorib wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:07 pm
...Short RDB 90/70cm masts which I ride are stiff.
RDB and Lift carbon masts are $600 shipped....
Grigory, does RDB have a U.S. distributor or do you buy direct from the manufacturer?
Let me know what you need.
PMd you what I have in stock

airsail
Frequent Poster
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:57 am
Weight: 80kg
Local Beach: Queens Beach North, Queensland, Australia
Favorite Beaches: Queens North, I don’t travel much
Style: Foiling
Gear: Sonic 3 15mtr, Soul 10 mtr, BRM Clouds 8, 6.2, 4.8, 3.7
Lift, Naish and Levitaz foils
Carbonco and home build boards
Ozone and Duotone wings
Naish Hover 95 foilboard
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 99 times
Been thanked: 64 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby airsail » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:56 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:09 pm
airsail wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:56 am
Naish went out on a limb last year and made a very thin wall mast, but with no internal bracing and bonded ends, they had some failures. This year, S26 alloys have internal webs and foam filled, they are lighter than the carbon and composite offerings but expensive as they come complete with bonded base and lower plates.
But their composite masts are almost the same price so unless you chasing the lightest mast why would you bother.
Is that the same company that was doing mixed carbon/alu masts? They were the same price as carbon too, but lighter than aluminum and stiffer than carbon.

Now the cat's out of the bag -- Naish and NP were the two brands I saw with folded masts.
Yes, here in Oz Naish will warranty any S25 mast with the silver top and bottom adapters. Bit of a stuff up, testing should be done by real life riders, not lightweight team riders.

OzBungy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2487
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:35 am
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 130 times

Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby OzBungy » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:35 am

Just doing a quick sum, the cost of my mast is $1.40 cents an hour. Mast and foil together is $2.80. Complete board, foil and mast is $4 an hour. I got a big discount and a custom carbon board because I exchanged emails with the maker. That's just my most used kite. I do have other foils and masts and boards, but I rarely use those things, mainly in specific sets of conditions.

I disassemble every session so I am very set on simplicity and ease of use. Full carbon everything. Deep tuttle mast and one piece foil, tail and fuselage. 4 screws and everything slots together with a positive connection.

The only negative of all this is reduced choice in foils and boards to an extent. My kite foiling gear is awesome so that's not a problem. If I wanted to chase max speed then all the premium products are one piece glider, deep tuttle, full carbon so that's not an issue. For wing surfing I am using GoFoil. It works just fine and is reasonably priced. It would be nice if they had a greater range of products on offer.

I am a bit suspicious of systems where you have a heap of screws holding the foil onto the fuselage and interchangeable stuff. It all seems so structurally unsound. All my gear the screws are there for security only. The physical structure is what holds it all together. Nothing can come off unless there is a total structural failure. That's never happened.

I am not convinced by the idea of mixing and matching foils and tails and fuselages. I have that on my wing foiling kit. It usually only takes 15 minutes of riding to adapt to a new configuration.

I have a suspicion that short board surf/wing foiling, particularly strapped, might require tuning tweaks in mast position. I might go down that path or not depending on how things turn out.


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests