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Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

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Kamikuza
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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Kamikuza » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:35 am

OzBungy wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:35 am
Just doing a quick sum, the cost of my mast is $1.40 cents an hour. Mast and foil together is $2.80. Complete board, foil and mast is $4 an hour. I got a big discount and a custom carbon board because I exchanged emails with the maker. That's just my most used kite. I do have other foils and masts and boards, but I rarely use those things, mainly in specific sets of conditions.

I disassemble every session so I am very set on simplicity and ease of use. Full carbon everything. Deep tuttle mast and one piece foil, tail and fuselage. 4 screws and everything slots together with a positive connection.

The only negative of all this is reduced choice in foils and boards to an extent. My kite foiling gear is awesome so that's not a problem. If I wanted to chase max speed then all the premium products are one piece glider, deep tuttle, full carbon so that's not an issue. For wing surfing I am using GoFoil. It works just fine and is reasonably priced. It would be nice if they had a greater range of products on offer.

I am a bit suspicious of systems where you have a heap of screws holding the foil onto the fuselage and interchangeable stuff. It all seems so structurally unsound. All my gear the screws are there for security only. The physical structure is what holds it all together. Nothing can come off unless there is a total structural failure. That's never happened.

I am not convinced by the idea of mixing and matching foils and tails and fuselages. I have that on my wing foiling kit. It usually only takes 15 minutes of riding to adapt to a new configuration.

I have a suspicion that short board surf/wing foiling, particularly strapped, might require tuning tweaks in mast position. I might go down that path or not depending on how things turn out.
That's how I look at costs too, with a "smiles per miles/bang for buck" modifier. Foiling is never a bad session, and wind has to drop pretty low for it to be a fail. Even the days I've broken gear I've been having a great session -- until then :D

I take the foil off the board, that's it. Used to completely strip the Foil Fish... wasn't as big a hassle as I thought it would be.

That's been my biggest problem, spoiled for choice.

I get where you're coming from but it's a non-issue -- except for those guys with the new Cabrinha setups and the 40mm bolts :o Couple of the locals have lost the wing/fuse/stab off their two-piece foils -- both Spotz IIRC.

Mix n' match is great. As lazy as I am, I only swap my wing now but having a very light wind wing option helps stretch less than stellar days. Adapting isn't the issue.

Between my two wings, mast position is about an inch different so that my feet are in good positions on the board. Strapless means I can just move my feet, but on a small board life's a bit easy being able to tune the mast position.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Foil » Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:49 am

for cautious new foilers and cash strapped or time strapped foilers then carbon bits are maybe something to aspire to later on,
but make no mistake 99.9% of seasoned foilers- the guys who started on aluminium masts and heavy pre preg wings and heavy big boards would never dream of swapping in their lightweight carbon bits, for any of the stuff that made their entrance into the world of hydrofoiling easy and affordable, and to be honest the heavy stuff was more stable, slower, of course cheaper, and better in terms of running into beach gravel, mussel beds and rocky bottoms, as that is what you do as a newbie.
once you experience the joy, the fun, the shear delight of being able to appreciate the benefits of well made super light gear, the silky high speed wobble free, noise free, draggy feel free, then the cost becomes less of an issue, change to a gong ali mast? why?? to save dosh? yes some do, good luck getting the same overall experience that I get from my kit, yes a gong mast is priced super low, great for starting out on, buy spare ones for when they bend as they certainly do, if I have witnessed two bending in 6 months then how many world wide? and they were being used by novices not guys who will properly stress them to the limit.
I read in one of the earlier posts on here that carbon masts are easy to make, really? is that why so many brands went to Moses to ask them to make their carbon masts for them? laying up over 150 separate cuts of carbon to make one carbon mast sounds ever so easy, don't know why I haven't tried to make one myself.
extruded aluminium masts are mega cheap to make, take a look at dinghy masts of over 4mtrs long, they sell for cheap as chips prices, and are way more complicated in design, if gong can make a profit at their very low prices then how much profit are the bigger brands making selling the same extruded aluminium.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Ulrik » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:34 pm

Foil wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:49 am
once you experience the joy, the fun, the shear delight of being able to appreciate the benefits of well made super light gear, the silky high speed wobble free, noise free, draggy feel free, then the cost becomes less of an issue, change to a gong ali mast?
If you are on a W633/W679 frontwing, then "silky high speed" can be achieved with both Carbon and Alu masts. :wink:

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby grigorib » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:52 pm

Ulrik wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:34 pm
Foil wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:49 am
once you experience the joy, the fun, the shear delight of being able to appreciate the benefits of well made super light gear, the silky high speed wobble free, noise free, draggy feel free, then the cost becomes less of an issue, change to a gong ali mast?
If you are on a W633/W679 frontwing, then "silky high speed" can be achieved with both Carbon and Alu masts. :wink:
633/683s/679 become quite unstable at about 25 mph. Those are good wings but they don’t go very fast

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby clint2070 » Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:16 pm

My S26 mast is the first aluminum mast that Ive ever had that I like.It doesn't take on water and feels really stiff. I like the entire setup better than my Armstrong foil. Its more stable and turns faster. its only 6oz heavier than my Armstrong setup with same size wings too. Going back to having to keep my eye on corrosion issues sucks but with the new inserts Im hoping that I can go longer between replying teff gel like Naish claims. Im going to buy the 95cm carbon mast for it once its available. Hopefully they nailed their carbon mast on the first run.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby elguapo » Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:28 pm

only reason to buy an aluminum mast is if you are one of the poors...


..otherwise get carbon.




Image

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby clint2070 » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:51 pm

elguapo wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:28 pm
only reason to buy an aluminum mast is if you are one of the poors...


..otherwise get carbon.




Image
haha

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Trent hink » Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:25 pm

I learned and got my very first few tries mostly on a Naish (surf, maybe it was called the thruster?) set-up maybe a few years ago.

I didn't like the weight and wanted to ride strapless and at that time especially wanted to ride in light wind.

So I took a chance and bought an all-carbon foil off of Allibaba for around $660 USD delivered.

I had second-thoughts after I ordered it, but once I got it, it was instantly easier to ride (strapless in light wind) than anything I had tried previously.

The best thing was that it made it super easy to start strapless, because the board would naturally lay on its side, just waiting for me to plonk my clumsy feet into it and take off ...

I have since acquired a nice used Moses 633, and that thing at first seemed like a hot-rod compared to what I started with; way quicker and not quite as easy to start, but really practically the same low-end and the fact is that the 633 Is an easy wing for most people to learn on.

The 633 goes way faster than the cheap thing I started out on, but most, like me, decide to get into hydrofoiling only for the chance to ride in marginal winds.

If that's what you want, you need light-weight gear, not just for performance, but for ease of use, especially when you are starting out.

My used Moses foil cost close to $800 from a friend, but for sure, you should not discount the benefits of getting the lightest possible foil you can afford.

If aluminum gets close, that might be fine, but there is no question that a properly engineered and manufactured carbon strut will be lighter and stiffer than anything you might get in aluminum.

The question is, does current manufacturing meet expectations, and if so, if it is worth the cost?

Without answering my own question, my opinion is, lighter weight is worth the cost.

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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby airsail » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:55 am

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is durability and price of spare parts. Around here we have plenty of rocks to catch the unwary and foil repairs are a regular occurrence.
I’ve seen a Moses mast split down the middle after an impact, total loss so a big cost to replace. Also a fuselage ripped off the bottom of a carbon mast, loss of wings and fuselage, major damage to the mast.
Alloys are popular, a new mast or fuselage is cheap. Easier to buy a new bit than try and fix a destroyed carbon.
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Re: Aluminium vs Carbon Mast - Cost vs Benefit

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:54 am

Trent hink wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:25 pm
I learned and got my very first few tries mostly on a Naish (surf, maybe it was called the thruster?) set-up maybe a few years ago.
That was the same as the LF Fun Foil, which was my first foil too. Then I got a Slingshot HoverGlide and that was a ton heavier. Then the moment I picked up the Axis kitefoil I knew I'd buy it cos it was so much lighter :lol:
Trent hink wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:25 pm
a properly engineered and manufactured carbon strut will be lighter and stiffer than anything you might get in aluminum
That myth just won't die will it :cry:
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