Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
Onda
Frequent Poster
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:12 am
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: North Sea (NL)
Favorite Beaches: Wijk aan Zee (NL)
Ouddorp (NL)
Baltic Sea (DE)
Style: strictly unstrapped, increasing foiling
Gear: CORE / Flysurfer / Naish / Firewire / Duotone
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 50 times
Contact:

Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby Onda » Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:06 pm

I can 100 % second Joel´s statements!
Just last week I had a mind-blowing foil-wave session with my brand-new Peak4 4 m² (my third Peak after the 5 and the 8 m²) and the Moses W633 on a 100 cm Board (Anton Skater).
Currently, I improve my skills with each session in the waves, and this time it was 16-20 kts in hip-high clean breaking waves. There were a few wingers out but I was feeling so much more agile and dynamic on the waves. Just a dream! As soon as you have just any breaking wave (no matter how small) you can surf with the 633, no need for a larger wing. The kite gives you much more power / pull to get into the right location on the water, in an instant, much easier than with a wing (it seems to me). More freedom, better view. The Peak can be steered so effortlessly, just perfect.
I´m still far from doing real cut-backs, but I´m slowly getting there, I guess. I don´t think the W633 is limiting me in any way, it can do very sharp turns if ridden with the right technique. I don´t have used any other foil yet, however.
The Peak definitely gives you the ability to simply surf the waves with zero kite input, it justs drifts with you. Zero wind noise in your ears, no line tension (OK, maybe 1 kg), no issue at all. As soon as you steer the kite, it is there again and gently pulls you to the outside again to repeat the joy.
So I think it is the combination of the Peak with a surf foil.
These users thanked the author Onda for the post (total 2):
lezo (Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:52 am) • JoelLikesFoil (Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:37 pm)
Rating: 13.33%

simcoloco
Rare Poster
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:19 pm
Kiting since: 2004
Favorite Beaches: Gorge
Style: Freeride swell foiling
Gear: BRM Cloud Kites, Lift Foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby simcoloco » Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:54 pm

I agree with most on here about the Lift classic foils, they just have everything I could want in a foil. I can do anything with it, it's a jack of all trades, and key is that it doesn't drop you, it's skatey, nimble and quick. I have both the 150 and 170 classic. At 200 pounds, I find that my favorite wing is the 150, and would only ride the 170 as a last resort in really holey or light wind that my 3.7M(my big kite) isn't quite enough for the 150. I find the 150 is slightly faster and and more nimble and more fun for me than the 170. The lift foil combined with small Cloud kites can't be beat for me as I'm on the 2.8M at 20MPH and switch to the 2.2M in the high 20's. It makes kiting very dynamic and fun.

I have to ride the Lift foils pretty far forward like others have stated, so I have drilled the mast mounting plate to get it farther forward. Problem is most boards have the holes or tracks too far back. I broke 3 dwarfcrafts last year in a 6 week time span, a 2019,2020, and the 2021- 100cm(don't get this board as the tracks are 4" too far back for the Lift 150, as I drilled holes in the middle of my mast plate to get it to work) board. Each year they progressively moved the track back making it harder and harder to get the foil placed right, and proper foil placement it the key to success and fun.

Seeing the broken boards was going to be a problem, I need to find one that wouldn't break and that would suit my needs. I ride strapless, carve swell and jump it, but obviously it's too much for a production board. So, I had a custom 99cm carbon wrapped Divinicell(or similar, can't remember the core type) board made by Peter at LP. I had him make me custom board with custom extra long tracks that will work for any foil on the market(something I've never seen anywhere else) as I don't want to have a new board for different foils. I've been on the LP board for 3 months with no signs of fatigue or breakage. Different shape than the DC's but I found I like the rounded nose, as it doesn't catch the wave if you hit it, really forgiving. Great not having to worry about breaking the board, and cramping your style.

Overall I can echo jumptheshark, there is no other foil I've ridden that works as well as the Lift Classic foils to have the most fun carving, jumping and swell riding.
These users thanked the author simcoloco for the post:
JoelLikesFoil (Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:38 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

Huib
Medium Poster
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:23 pm
Kiting since: 2015
Local Beach: Brouwersdam, Ouddorp
Style: Hydrofoil
Gear: Groove Wave, Ketos 118cm board, Ketos Foil, Cloud D2E 10.4 + 6.2 + 4.8+ 3.7, 2.8, 2.2
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Rotterdam
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 24 times
Contact:

Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby Huib » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 am

I have a ketos foil. The advantage of the Ketos is that you can replace the standard fuselage with a short one.
This in combination with smaller stabs and possibly the mast of 82 cm gives a very manoeuvrable foil.
In addition, I think it is the lightest foil on the market what also helps for quick carves. Mine weighs less than 5kg with board.
Not the cheapest board and hard to get outside Europe.

User avatar
lezo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:13 pm
Location: France
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby lezo » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:46 am

Hey, I completely agree with Joel and Onda!

Having passed the winter at Fuerteventura Nord, sharing waves with the best wingers here, I can only say that a Peak4 with the right foil has so much more versatility and potential fun! My skills are the main limitation still, trying to get better now every day at the last summer spot around that still has some waves and swell, Famara Beach at Lanzarote. More Peak4s than wings here.. Exactly 3 Peaks and 2 wings in the last days. :wink: My foil is a carbon prototype, mid/high aspect, 850cm2 surface, 72cms wing span, 17cms wide and 1,4mm thickness at the middle, 100cms mast.
These users thanked the author lezo for the post:
JoelLikesFoil (Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:47 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

kit3surfer
Medium Poster
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:34 pm
Kiting since: 2010
Gear: North
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby kit3surfer » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:35 am

Hi lezo,
pretty interesting what you write about Lanza and Famara. Would it mind you to film a couple of rides of these peak4 guys and upload these somewhere?
Many thanks.

User avatar
lezo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:13 pm
Location: France
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby lezo » Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:53 am

kit3surfer wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:35 am
Hi lezo,
pretty interesting what you write about Lanza and Famara. Would it mind you to film a couple of rides of these peak4 guys and upload these somewhere?
Many thanks.
Sorry, but for the moment my broadcasting equipment is limited to an old iPhone! Will try to get a GoPro, the best would be a friend with a drone over here. My local spanish Peak4 mates do not seem to be filming pros, either..

kit3surfer
Medium Poster
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:34 pm
Kiting since: 2010
Gear: North
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby kit3surfer » Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:18 pm

Thanks, but no need for an edit or drone, just some short sequences raw and straight out of cam/phone would be great.

User avatar
Flyboy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2087
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 84 times
Been thanked: 132 times

Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby Flyboy » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:28 pm

JoelLikesFoil wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:59 pm
Oh, re: winging...I think the Peak4 is the answer for kite foilers who aren't happy with the freedom to surf how they might want. I've shared sessions with pretty good wingers and get better rides, more rides and generally do circles around them. I'll trying winging one day to try something new, but it won't be due to surfing performance relative to a kite.
Yesterday shared a session with a couple of wind foilers & wing foilers. Started in really light wind - perhaps 9 knots which gradually built to a solid 12 - 13 knots. Initially I was barely able to water start with the 6m Peak & 1000 cm2 Gong wing. I was impressed that the wingers were able to get foiling in around 12 knots, albeit with a lot of pumping & frequent dips off foil. The wind eventually built to around 14 - 15 knots with decent hip high swell.

In those conditions I can't see how winging (or wind foiling) matches up with kite foiling. Ride across the wind along the swell & then use the kite to pull down onto the face & ride it more or less downwind. At that point there is little or no pull in the kite - it just drifts along. When you need a little more speed you just slightly move the kite ... this is as opposed to a winger furiously pumping the foil to keep moving on the wave. I'd rather have the kite for that.

That's just downwind riding the wave, not very exciting. When it comes to carving across the wave, the kite gives you the ability to carve a more aggressive & more elegant turn than a winger or a wind foiler. In that sense, it is like the difference between kiting waves & windsurfing waves. The ability to use apparent wind efficiently is way higher with a kite & that translates into better carving.

Where windsurfing shines is in stronger, side shore winds & bigger, steeper waves. I've always thought that windsurfing somewhere like the north shore of Maui looks more convincing than kite surfing it. That's because in stronger, side shore winds & bigger waves apparent winds works against you, pulling you off your edge & off the wave. My impression is that winging makes a lot of sense in places like Maui, or the Gorge, where there is strong wind & fast, steep waves.

I posted this Youtube clip of L'ours in another thread explaining the new Gong line-up of wings & stabs. It's as in-depth a discussion of design that I've come across. Interestingly, Gong doesn't really have a low aspect, thin wing like the 633. Their lower aspects wings are fatter. It's my impression that the growth area for Gong's business - & this might be true of most foil companies - is much more in wing foiling, wake foiling & surf/sup foiling, than kite foiling.

These users thanked the author Flyboy for the post:
JoelLikesFoil (Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:49 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

ice
Medium Poster
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:46 am
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby ice » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am

JoelLikesFoil wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:59 pm
Finally, I think I've found my people on this here forum thread! I've been 100% dedicated to kite foiling waves for a while now, so I'll add my thoughts...

I have a very high opinion of my Slingshot Phantasm 633 with 92cm mast. I LAY INTO THIS THING, and it never fails. I crank hard, abrupt turns (as if smacking the lip on surf board), snappy pivot turns, or take em wide and carvy. I have not found the limit of pushing the G's with this thing - I am still the limitation. I am considering the next mast size or two up, so as to be able to lean even more and keep the wing in the water. I don't know what the top speed is, but it's fast enough for this discipline. Fast enough to catch up to any wave...and slow enough to kill time until the next one. Generous enough to take any amount of white water, burp or other flow disruption. Massive storm swell, bay chop, or beach break, I'm covered.

Second thing: small enough board to not have too much momentum to counter - need light, stiff and snappy. 3'10" for me, and I'd go smaller next time. My RE Bird Machine has chamfered bottom edges which I do think help with the occasional chop/wave touch. This board is pretty similar to the 100cm Dwarftcraft. I prefer a foam-cored board over a deck, and the thicker cross section is stiffer.

Third and most critical part for really getting after it - the right kite. I've settled on Peak4 in 3,4 and 6m (good from 11-30kt). Once you have the ability to boss the foil around, the Peak4 enables taking that to the next level. If you think you're accomplishing this with a tube kite, you're not. For the people following this particular thread - the difference is real and must be tried. The power delivery is perfect: exactly what you want, exactly when you want it, and nothing more. Because of this you can change direction in an instant, or just ease up on the bar and become 95% independent of the kite. I have tried and cannot outrun the kite dead downwind full speed on a wave (in say at least 12kt wind). Often, just set the kite up high and ride and make turns with no hands on the bar.

Since putting together this trifecta of shred, I never think about gear anymore - solely focused on pushing harder and finding new conditions to master. Good times!

Oh, re: winging...I think the Peak4 is the answer for kite foilers who aren't happy with the freedom to surf how they might want. I've shared sessions with pretty good wingers and get better rides, more rides and generally do circles around them. I'll trying winging one day to try something new, but it won't be due to surfing performance relative to a kite.
Joel, my experiences and motivation are the same as yours. I am on the Peaks, 120 cm board, but have never tried the Phantasm. What other foils did you try and discount before settling on the Phantasm? I have been on the LF Impulse (Cloud IX) for years and have found it very very good for this style of riding.

User avatar
lezo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:13 pm
Location: France
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby lezo » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:59 am

@Flyboy
I agree completely with the first part - In suboptimal kitesurfing conditions, such as less than 15-16kts or not-so-perfect waves, foils with Peak4s have much more potential for carving on a wave than wingers, mainly because we can take much smaller front wings without being penalized.

However, I disagree with the second part. Decades of windsurfing and then kitesurfing at great European wave spots indicate for me clearly that kiting with a decent surfboard (3 strapped 6'1 semigun in my case) is also superior to windsurfing, even in perfect side/side-off conditions and nice steep waves. Could not compare directly at Hookipa because of the 10 men rule, but at Sprecks and Kanaha I do not feel handicapped.. Mainly for a similar reason: the board is much smaller and thus more maniable than even the most radical wave-windsurf board. Added advantage is the security coming from the kite - in spots where I broke masts, or did not dare to go in, now I run around these liquid beasts and even if I get caught, they cannot reach my kite! (RRD Religions, because they are also good drifters and turn fast and weight does not count much over 18kts). Not getting ripped off the wave is a kite handling question - similar again to what was discussed above for foil carving.


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests