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Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

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mirza23454
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Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby mirza23454 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:59 pm

What foil & board would you say most closely approximates surf skate like carving? Like in this video:





I'm looking for a setup that links super quick carves/gybes on waves instead of long drawn out turns. The closest I've seen to this is Gunnar @gmb13 on a Moses 633 + 82/91cm mast + Groove Skate/Wave board:





I'm currently mostly flying peak4 3m/5m and playing with a couple different Naish foils. I fly upwind then shut off the kite and ride waves/chop downwind. I found that a Naish short fuselage and high aspect / flat wing seems a lot more agile than the Naish mid length fuselage with downturned surf/carve wings, although the marketing says the HA carves worse than the surf wing, so I'm not sure if I just need more time on the water with them.

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Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby tswierkocki » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:29 am

I would check out the Cloud 9 foils. My favorite wing for that type of riding is the X24 and their F series might be even better. Lots of good videos on their Instagram page.

https://cloud9surffoils.com/collections ... -sets/Foil


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Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby Knowone » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:25 pm

Interesting topic. Rolling the foil from 'edge to edge', while using the power of the wave is my holy grail. Presently I am riding a Lift 170; I am looking for foil with better glide, without sacrificing the low end . (Possibly mutually exclusive traits?).

This is my style:



Any suggestions?
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Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:15 pm

Also very much in this camp and also on the lift 170. I have tried higher aspect wings, and prefer the lower aspect wing shape in spite of its noticeable drag. The 170 is very similar to the 633 in planform. That low aspect shape is just the nicest to go rail to rail down swell. Have tried small higher aspect, med higher aspect, same size much higher aspect and larger but same low aspect and have settled on 1100 cm2, thin profile, low aspect with big stab and short fuse. Really couldn't be happier than the Lift 170. Too bad they don't make it any more!

Much less drag on higher aspect wings, but thats only really needed for glide in the upwind carves with a kite. The added drag is not really much of an issue headed down swell and really rather helps keep you in/on the wave. Really, its a variable that you get used to and though there is more drag to the Lift 170 than there is to say the never V2 150 surf, it's not a game changer amount like it is going from say surfboard to foil. These spade shaped foil wings absolutely provide enough glide to carve swell in perpetuity where a surfboard in gutless small swell, not so much. Higher aspect wings also have wider wing spans and that eventually limits the rail to rail carving as you start venting the tips. There is definitely a sweet spot and on my 82cm mast I don't want a wingspan much above 66 cm.

The speed envelope for good rail to rail carving in swell is moderate to slow, which really suits wings with a very soft stall that you can essentially ride through, where the higher aspect wings with more glide, will buck you off at stall speeds. You can get pretty fed up with that pretty quick! I personally carve around a lot at lower speeds as our waves are just not that fast, so much prefer med/low aspect main wing. Stall can be felt starting and even just a quick pivot is enough to get you out of it.

Thin profile is one way to help keep excess drag to a minimum.

Stab size and fuse length are also key pieces. I like a short fuse and pretty big stab. At slower speeds it provides a lot of rear foot feedback while carving and feels much more like a good surfboard than a higher aspect wing with smaller stab. If you ride bigger swell at higher speeds, my set up would be too locked in. That big stab makes it hard to carve anything but a drawn out turn once the speed is up.

So, my happy place: 1000-1200 cm2 for average weight, med aspect wings, thin profile, short fuse, decent size stab, moderate mast length, super light board and Peak4s on relatively short lines.

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Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby joekitetime » Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:43 pm

Like many others, I'm after surfing the foil. I ride very similar to "mateos cut" above but much more aggessively. I have ridden probably 50 different foils in addition to as many stabs and fuse length combos.

What I have found is you can virtually ride any foil that way. It takes a different kind of kite skill and kite which is a huge part of the equation. The get super super radical with cut backs you have to be able to kill your speed, luff the kite, do the hard carve or slash or slide or breach, then immediately power the kite up for recovery. I wouldn't bother necessarily looking for the perfect foil - I've made many work. Some don't work at all but most work. Once you learn the technique then you can apply it to all foils and all kites - and you will see how some work better than others.

The "trick" as I would describe it is this: On a reach down the line when the kite is pulling and you are flying you have to carve back and behind the kite, keeping the kite high. As the kite luffs you carve back in the original direction, modulating how much pull is coming from the kite. If too much cut back again and repeat. If the kite is nearly totally depowered and luffed, bottom turn (this is a pump off the back foot and a yaw at the same time - but pumping the foil off the bottom turn generates some power), then with that power, just like in traditional surfing, do some trick off the top of the wave. While doing the off the top, I usually then need to pull the bar to get a little power in the kite to keep pulling so you can just stay on foil. Depending on the pull of the kite up high, I either cut back again to luff the kite - rinse and repeat, or I dive the kite because I need more power, then raise it high and cut back again and repeat.

The trick is in modulating the pull of the kite. Turn it on but not so much as to yank you or get too much speed, and turn it off for a moment but not as to drop it out of the sky. I find the peak4s are really nice for this - especailly that 3m because it is so crazy fast - it is really easy to whip it and get some power right when you need it.

But, the magic trick really is the kite, moreso than the foil. Beleive me, I've tried!

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Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:26 pm

Yeah, I buy that you can ride any foil in a style, and that what we are talking about here is a style, but there will definitely be set ups that suit and those that don't. High aspect, smaller wings, long masts, boards with length and swing weight.... Plenty of things that crimp your style when your going for a surfboard feel on foil.

Definitely agree the kite makes a huge difference, but there are definitely foils that suit too. I'm sure there are plenty that fit the bill, but I personally am not supper keen on the high aspect set ups that are trying for ultra efficiency for wingers and pumping for the prone guys.

I will never really rely on pumping for more than top and bottoms turn impulse. With a kite, I'll take advantage of the forgiving nature of lower aspect wings and just hit the gas with the kite when I need it.

Like rocker on a twintip, sometimes the subjective "feel" that makes all the difference in the world comes at the cost of outright efficiency. Foil design is moving toward efficiency for reasons of pumping, weak wing power or battery efficiency, and none of those are really in the slightest geared toward kiters.
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Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby tkaraszewski » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:44 pm

Lol, at the risk of starting an argument, I don't understand why people are so infatuated with trying to find the ultimate way to surf 2-foot wind chop at 10mph. And if you are, that seems like the perfect conditions for a wingfoil. 😂

I'm really not trying to make fun of anyone, everyone is free to enjoy their own style of riding. I think any of the traditional surf foils like the lift 150 and the Moses 633 and similar should work just fine for this, but I do think this is where the wingfoil excels as well.

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Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:03 pm

Argument eh. Aren't you a speed guy? I bet there are foils that suit that kinda thing and people that like to discuss if there actually needs to be a vert component to wings and stabs, or the nuance of low drag component joining and the optimum fuse material. Well this ain't a thread about that and there is plenty of nuance for those on 633 or Lift 150's to get into.

As to our obsessions with small waves.... were generally just obsessed with waves and make it the focal point of our style. Lets be clear, all the two foot days are simply training for the 25 knot 7 foot days. If there were only a lot more of those! No man, I am absolutely a high wind kite foiler. Right up to smoke on the water bud, but I sure as hell fill a lot of time in lesser stuff. I see the racers doing the same, and jus like them I do the same style on the same foil every day out and work with what the day provides. As to the winging, I guess you don't really understand what were after. I have yet to see a winger in person do half as well with twice as much swell. It's definitely a style we are talking about, and it's likely to end up a bigger side of the sport than speed as for many, riding in straight lines is akin to watching paint dry!

No, we are certainly not limited to light wind or tiny waves. We are simply talking about a swell centric riding that makes best use of whatever we get.

I cant really expect you to understand. the race guys will pass right by the best wave spots without even noticing. They have VMG vision as apposed to the swell vision cultivated by those in this thread.

And for sure, I think Joe is right. There are a lot of middle of the road freeride foils out there. Pretty much every brand has one, and they are all likely quite fun in swell. Loads of it has to do with what you get really comfortable on, but I still think there are specific aspects to design that best fit this style, and not all brands are there yet. Furthermore some brands are moving away from what best suits kiters of this style to better cater to wingers, E riders and prone foilers who need more pumpability from their wings.

Didn't you ditch Peaks? They were a miss match for you. Well no more than taking a race style foil and board and trying to carve in swell. Can you take a road bike on a bmx pump track? Yup..... is it done...... nope.

Anyway, back on topic, I personally want a foil that is thin profile as apposed to many of the thicker wings out there. would rather use surface area and a low aspect shape to afford slowing down while maintaining a friendly stall character as apposed to using profile for low speed lift with a higher aspect to minimize drag. These things are a trade off. Friendly stall character is key for me. I also want a short fuse to turn tight when combining pitch, yaw and roll in an aggressive fashion, but also want enough tail that I can feel it in pitch heavy bottom and top turns, and moments of pumping impulse. Others might like a much smaller stab for a looser overall feel and wider operating speed envelope.

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Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby tkaraszewski » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:23 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:03 pm
As to the winging, I guess you don't really understand what were after.
I must not.
jumptheshark wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:03 pm
I have yet to see a winger in person do half as well with twice as much swell. It's definitely a style we are talking about...
I would love to know what that style is, because looking at the video posted earlier in this thread as an example, it looks very doable on a wingfoil. Am I lacking in the nuance to tell the difference? Is there a different video that better illustrates what you're aiming to do?

You don't have to indulge me, I'm just genuinely a bit curious as to what it is you're trying to accomplish.

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Re: Ultimate foil for surf skate like quick carves?

Postby jumptheshark » Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:26 am

Well, most wingers are on boards 10-20x the volume of the kiter's board with all the swing weight that entails. That right there pretty much makes it a different thing altogether, but there is also the big wing in your hand as apposed to a 45cm bar, the soft power of said wing as apposed to the instant torque of a kite that can be feathered or summoned full force whenever and whatever the situation even while riding swell. I can tap into and completely shut off my kite five times in three turns in as much time it takes a winger to engage and then luff their wing once. Try surfing a wave while feathering the power of a wing off and on to suit in any part of any turn. No, in tiny waves like in that vid, the wing guys are surfing far more conservatively as dictated by the power of the wave. A wing is engaged only to go upwind, and provides no juice while surfing. With a kite, you can carve up and down something small and crank hard enough to kill all your speed and with a flick of the wrist you firing on down the line. Kites allows you to go down the line in waves that don't have the power for those kind of shortboard lines, where in the same conditions wingers are drawing more longboard like lines.

Surfing a foil with a wing in hand compared to a kite is as different as racing a foil with a wing in hand as compared to a kite.

A winger needs easily twice those conditions to manage what the guy in the video is doing. The dynamic power of a kite while actually carving in swell adds huge fun factor to small conditions, where a wing adds no positive dynamic to the swell beyond what you can milk from it with the foil alone, and even then you have to hold onto a big thing and trail it behind you. If you think its more fun your welcome to it. I'll gladly use you as a jibe mark
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