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Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

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addictedtofoil
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Re: Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

Postby addictedtofoil » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:01 pm

Oh ok, I didn't realize the lift 250 was a two piece. A lot of local riders use the Axis gear and someone else recommended the 1050 HPS which looks great for my weight.

WINGSPAN: 1050 mm / 41 inches
MAX CHORD: 170mm
MEAN AVERAGE CHORD: 123mm
ASPECT RATIO: 7.55
ACTUAL AREA 1502 square cm
CAMBER (as % of CHORD): 2.5
VOLUME: 1665 cubic cm / 102 cubic inches

https://axisfoils.com/products/1050mm-carbon-front-wing


Since I already have the Sabfoil gear, it would be preferable to buy a 945 (or call it 975) that was 1500-1600cm, not too wide and definitely less than 1m, with an aspect ratio of 7-8.

I'm sure Sabfoil could work their magic and come up with an even better foil in this range than the Axis 1050.

Maybe I could sand the downturned wing tips off the 1100 and 950 to improve the foils, stop the ventilation and make them more playful, but there still is a gap for the wind range I am looking for.

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Re: Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

Postby StellaBlu » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:15 pm

This thread exemplifies the gear overload in foiling right now (Moses and Axis are primary offenders). Companies are overcomplicating things with these highly intricate product ranges that create infinite possibilities.

Variety is the spice of life... until its not.

addictedtofoil
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Re: Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

Postby addictedtofoil » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:45 pm

StellaBlu wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:15 pm
This thread exemplifies the gear overload in foiling right now (Moses and Axis are primary offenders). Companies are overcomplicating things with these highly intricate product ranges that create infinite possibilities.

Variety is the spice of life... until its not.
I couldn't agree more, 2-3 foils is all you really need to cover 10-30 knots and the market is flooded with companies trying to win your business. It reminds me when kiting first came out (been kiting since 2000), loads of companies have come and gone, the same will be true for winging, it is what free markets do.

I learnt the expensive way by having to buy foils without being able to demo first and from reading threads here, but I have experience now and can spot BS when I see it.

And I am sure all foil manufacturers would understand that their market has different weight classes and people of different weights need the same wing in different sizes to have the same experience. What works well for a 75kg person is not going to be the same for an 85kg person or a 95kg person given all other conditions (wind/ability etc) are equal.

This takes us all the way back to the lift equation, "Lift is directly related to surface area". I'm a heavier guy and need more lift.

Anyone saying that a wing that is 1300cm2 will work exactly the same for a person weighing 75kg and 95kg given the exact same conditions (< 18knots) and ability is simply incorrect.

Sabfoil were on the right path 940/945 as it is pretty much the same design scaled up but then they stopped. Where is the next wing of the same design for heavier riders for the same conditions?

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Re: Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

Postby gmb13 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:47 pm

addictedtofoil wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:32 pm
Thanks for the information, but it is not comparing apples with apples. Your weight is exactly the target market for the 945!



I could 100% guarantee that your opinion would change dramatically. You too could wear a scuba weight belt with 25kg and then try the 945 in light-medium wind < 18 knots, but please don't as it wont be safe for you to do so.

If I do this (with a 15kg water weight) , film it and once and for all prove it to you, will you accept it? Or will that just be a waste of time just like me posting the Cl equation explanation?

--
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Re: Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

Postby addictedtofoil » Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:03 am

I don't want anyone getting hurt.

Yes I saw your diagram, here is another from NASA https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/lifteq.html

Area is an important part (parameter) of the lift equation in case you missed it. If you change that parameter (or area) you also get a different lift profile. Smaller area = less lift
Bigger area = more lift
lift.PNG

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Re: Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

Postby gmb13 » Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:38 am

addictedtofoil wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:03 am
I don't want anyone getting hurt.

Yes I saw your diagram, here is another from NASA https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/lifteq.html

Area is an important part (parameter) of the lift equation in case you missed it. If you change that parameter (or area) you also get a different lift profile. Smaller area = less lift
Bigger area = more lift

lift.PNG
I won't get hurt, adding 15kg of water weight to a board is not an issue, I can even use a 12kg Board instead if that makes you feel better.

Let me rephrase just for you!
Surface Area is just one factor, and using it alone for comparing lift between front wings for foils does not work.

"Smaller area = less lift Bigger area = more lift" is correct only if profile shape, AR, Angle of attack\angle of incidence and outline are exactly the same. This is not the case when comparing Foils.



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addictedtofoil
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Re: Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

Postby addictedtofoil » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:09 am

Surface area is a great comparison if it costs you $750 a wing!

When comparing foils, rider weight is a crucial parameter (as well as surface area) as a heavier rider will exceed the lift force of the same foil than a lighter rider will given all other conditions are equal. http://www.aerodynamics4students.com/ai ... icient.php
weight.png
https://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/ ... -equation/
weight1.png
The same foil is not the same for all riders and the foil should be scaled to cater for the different weight ranges of people.

But if you say that the 945 is the only wing a 95-100kg person needs winging on a 6m in 10-18 knots of wind, then yes a video of this range would be
beneficial to all, and that would mean I could sell my 950 and 1100 as redundant.

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Re: Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

Postby gmb13 » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:28 am

addictedtofoil wrote: Surface area is a great comparison if it costs you $750 a wing!

When comparing foils, rider weight is a crucial parameter (as well as surface area) as a heavier rider will exceed the lift force of the same foil than a lighter rider will given all other conditions are equal. http://www.aerodynamics4students.com/ai ... icient.php
The attachment weight.png is no longer available
https://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/ ... -equation/


The same foil is not the same for all riders and the foil should be scaled to cater for the different weight ranges of people.

But if you say that the 945 is the only wing a 95-100kg person needs winging on a 6m in 10-18 knots of wind, then yes a video of this range would be
beneficial to all, and that would mean I could sell my 950 and 1100 as redundant.
So lets run some numbers through the Lift Equation
2021-08-18 (2).png
2021-08-18 (2).png (8.74 KiB) Viewed 184 times
Using Wing 1 as a Base and and assuming a constant velocity of 10km. To make it easy I will just give it s Cl of 1

The eqation spits out 1345.95

For Wing 2 with a a Cl of 1.5 (given by thicker profiles and less taper and more lifty profile, etc) but the same Area

The Equation spits out 2018.925

For Wing 3 which has the same Cl as wing 1 (assuming same profiles and profile distribution shape etc) but with 1800cm2 area.

The equation spits out 1791.6

I know this is a way oversimplified version of showing this, and that Cl involves a lot of factors, but it shows you how Area is offset a lot by the Cl. So you can have 2 wings with the same area, but with different shape and profiles having a massive difference of lift for a given speed through the water.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

Postby addictedtofoil » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:42 am

Yes I understand how a foil with the same surface area with a different shape generates more lift, but when you add the riders weight onto the lift force of the foil and you can't increase the wind speed (10knots) or the wing size (6m) or decrease the riders weight (95-100kg), the only other option is to scale the foil.

While the 945 with a reduced surface area of -50cm2 may generate more lift than the 950 as you and others say, this is quickly negated by my weight (see the weight force + lift equation above). I cannot increase wing size or increase the wind, so it is the foil that has to change, or I give up and go to the pub!

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Re: Moses release new 607 and 740 wing, where's the wings for prone and winging?

Postby gmb13 » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:55 am

addictedtofoil wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:42 am
Yes I understand how a foil with the same surface area with a different shape generates more lift, but when you add the riders weight onto the lift force of the foil and you can't increase the wind speed (10knots) or the wing size (6m) or decrease the riders weight (95-100kg), the only other option is to scale the foil.

While the 945 with a reduced surface area of -50cm2 may generate more lift than the 950 as you and others say, this is quickly negated by my weight (see the weight force + lift equation above). I cannot increase wing size or increase the wind, so it is the foil that has to change, or I give up and go to the pub!
No. The lift force will be the same. You cannot say your weight changes the lift output of the wing. It is a given that you as a heavier rider will need more speed (not wind) to get it to lift you than a 75kg rider, but the lift the wing creates at a given speed remains the same. What will change because of your weight is the speed it needs to lift you and your board out of the water and be pitch stable.

You are right that the Foil needs to change, but the area is not a main deciding factor for that. You can either have a wing with more area but the same design or a wing with a different design with the same area. The outcome will be the same in the end.

As takeoff speed is a big factor of getting going in light wind, you might want to consider changing your board. Needing a big Foil in 15-18 knots gives me the feeling that your board does not accelerate very well.

--
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