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High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

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tegirinenashi
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby tegirinenashi » Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:27 pm

Why hydrofoil wing span has any relevance to the turn radius? It is not a kite which span measures in meters, and has some non-negligeable moment of inertia. It is attached to the board which has more significant impact from that perspective. And, even with the board consideration I refuse to believe that the length of the board is of any significance during the turning maneuver.

A kite hydrofoil 360 can be idealized as a mass tethered to a point on a circle trajectory. The relevant variables are:
1. The mass (mostly the rider)
2. The force of the pull (kite + foil)
3. The speed
Given that the variable 1 is pretty much fixed, I suggest that one obvious way to have a tighter turn is decreasing the speed. The other, less trivial possibility is is increasing the pull from the kite or push from the foil.

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby Lamilu » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:37 pm

Ok More AR…Less AR…
Plus more or less thickness…
Which AR do experienced kiters consider +/- the SWEET SPOT?
AR…
3?
4?
5?
6?
Kkkk
I vote between 4 and 5
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby leeuwen » Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:08 pm

tegirinenashi wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:27 pm
Why hydrofoil wing span has any relevance to the turn radius? It is not a kite which span measures in meters, and has some non-negligeable moment of inertia.
Do note that a wing moves in water, not in air, which obviously creates a way higher amount of inertia/resistance.
Just think about pushing your hand through the water at speed: although it’s not a lot of surface area it will create a lot of resistance. Add to this that the further away you get from the centre of the board it will also create a lever effect.

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:10 pm

leeuwen wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:08 pm
tegirinenashi wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:27 pm
Why hydrofoil wing span has any relevance to the turn radius? It is not a kite which span measures in meters, and has some non-negligeable moment of inertia.
Do note that a wing moves in water, not in air, which obviously creates a way higher amount of inertia/resistance.
Just think about pushing your hand through the water at speed: although it’s not a lot of surface area it will create a lot of resistance. Add to this that the further away you get from the centre of the board it will also create a lever effect.

Agree, very true.

Higher span means a lot less agile in turning, just like a bigger stab means a lot more dull and slow turning foil.

The viscosity of water is the reason why higher span is a huge limitation in turning and liveliness as leeuwen points out.

8) Peter

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby GregK » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:20 pm

SMJ wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:12 pm
... I fly Lift wings most of the time, and I much prefer their Classic series wings to the high aspect wings...
Try Lift's new 150 Surf V2 - it's awesome !

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby jumptheshark » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:50 pm

wingspan directly impacts roll resistance and along with mast length impacts how fast you can go rail to rail and how much roll you can achieve before venting.

Most are after roll over yaw for carving fun. As kiters were lucky we can tap into the kite for instant torque and lift. Were like the rally cars of the foiling world and can afford to lose some efficiency in the L/D ratio of our wings to achieve a different quality of ride. That "quality" or maybe I should call it character is going to be pretty subjective depending on what your after in your foiling.

If you want to catch and ride only wave power.... higher AR is your ticket to more time doing what your after.

If our after a more kite powered form of riding, you can go lower AR and carve tighter.

The quest for ultra high lift to drag ratio wings suits the soft power of winging and surf foiling, but as a kiter there are diminishing returns to the fun when going all in on efficiency.

Same for twin tips and surfboard really. Super efficient boards are usually not the most fun to ride and what makes any board fun generally comes at the cost of efficiency. No different for wings.

non powered glider wings differ from powered planes and so does the character of their aerobatics.
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby bragnouff » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:21 pm

There's also the fact that kiters overall use smaller wings than wingers. And I'm sure that the smaller you get, the more low aspect you can handle. (bit like the kites really... VARC, ARX, ... ) Or inversely, the bigger you go, the more you need to increase the AR to retain some performance.

A big low ratio wing like GoFoil's M200 feels draggy and slow, but the same shape in a smaller version (like the GoFoil Kai) doesn't feel anywhere as draggy and can reach decent speeds.
When wing foiling, I clearly appreciate the significant gains of going from the M200 to the GL210 or GL180, but for kiting, I'm still on the fence between the GL140 and the Kai. Cruising speed/ top speed are actually very similar (with Peak kites at least), GL140 has some advantage in riding/linking the bumps downwind, but the Kai is quite playful in terms of roll and tight turns. Maybe even lower stall speed, but that is not really a significant point for kiting. I'd say that they're equally fun, whereas that doesn't stand true for their bigger siblings in the winging context, hard to go back to the M200 after using the GLs for a while.

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby elmarco » Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:24 am

I spent a lot of time playing with a ton of different wing sizes this summer in the AK Durable supply line (Airush)
I narrowed it down to 2 wings to cover everything for me as an advanced rider(Kite, surf, wing)
Don't be fooled that you can't turn high aspect, put a short fuselage on it you can throw it all over the place, and size down the surface area from a mid-low aspect.

1000cm Plasma High Aspect (5.0 High Aspect) 61cm fuselage:
-Kite in surf
-Kite in ultra light wind
-Surf
-Wing

850cm Tracer (7.0 Mid aspect) 71cm fuselage:
-flat water kite, fast, efficient, nimble, and still ok for light wind

If you're heavier, or want something slightly better for beginner, move up to the 1000 tracer for kite.
Only goto 1300 Plasma if you're heavier, zero reason otherwise.
I'm 175 lbs.

I used to ride 1300 & 1600 low aspect for surf & wing, after riding 1000 high aspect plasma, I'm never going back.

Image

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby Nelis » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:37 am

Thanks for all your thoughts so far! Main reason I asked is because fundamentally 'improved glide' is the great advantage that hydrofoiling brings in general, so why not have as much of it as you can? Having a broad comfortable speed range increases your wind range too I think.

The smaller HA wings that are coming out like this ART799 and the HA725 have 80-85cm span, and for surfing at least it seems they can be turned... Provided the skill is there, then you should be able to maintain line tension too?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CWHMTQLFiqo/

These sizes are not developed as HA race wings with small area that kiters are used to.
Alysum wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:13 pm
I will report back once I've kited with the new Axis ART799. I'm really looking forward to the extra speed and glide.
This is a good example of the wings I was referring to as well, let us know how it goes!

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby Kamikuza » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:55 pm

Nelis wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:37 am
Thanks for all your thoughts so far! Main reason I asked is because fundamentally 'improved glide' is the great advantage that hydrofoiling brings in general, so why not have as much of it as you can? Having a broad comfortable speed range increases your wind range too I think.

The smaller HA wings that are coming out like this ART799 and the HA725 have 80-85cm span, and for surfing at least it seems they can be turned... Provided the skill is there, then you should be able to maintain line tension too?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CWHMTQLFiqo/

These sizes are not developed as HA race wings with small area that kiters are used to.
Alysum wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:13 pm
I will report back once I've kited with the new Axis ART799. I'm really looking forward to the extra speed and glide.
This is a good example of the wings I was referring to as well, let us know how it goes!
That's how I like to think I ride :D I've got 820, 760 and 660mm wide wings from Axis. AR of ~4.5...

My issue is poking wingtips out when carving around. I'm convinced that better stance on the board solves a lot of that problem, but IMHO there'll be an upper limit to width and how much fun you'll have...

My experience with really wide wings -- they're more susceptible to whatever is going on under the water, in that one tip getting torque by turbulence is quite an unpleasant experience. Those were lower AR wings though...


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