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High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

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Nelis
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High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby Nelis » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:27 am

It seems for prone/wingdinging/pumping people are raving about the recent generation of high aspect wings that most big players have come out with (like the Armstrong HA's).

Us kiters just seems to largely stick to the 633 which is very low aspect, and of course most high aspect wings we know are all-out race wings. What about an Armstrong HA725 for example? I reckon it would potentially have a huge speed range? Does the large span make it roll-resistant? What other benefits/downsides would it have?

Gr, Nelis

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby dave1986 » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:35 am

The Moses/SABfoil 633 (and other similar low/medium aspect ratio foils) work very nicely for kitefoiling despite it's low aspect ratio and relative inefficiency compared with higher aspect foils. The reason for this is that the 633 is optimised for fast turning, low stall speed, and relatively high top speed. The 633 is not optimised for having a the best glide efficiency, the best lift-drag ratio, or best upwind angles (characteristics that high aspect wings are best at).

Hydrofoil glide efficiency, best lift-drag ratio, and best upwind angle are less important characteristics for kitefoiling because we have so much instant power and efficiency with the kite itself.

However with winging we have much less instant power on tap and the handheld wings aren't as efficient upwind compared with a kite. That's one of the reasons we are seeing more high-aspect hydrofoils for winging to win-back some of the lost efficiency.

That's not to say that high aspect foils aren't fun to use with a kite, or that lower aspect foils can't be used with a wing... But the above just offers some explanation for the trends we are seeing.

As a general rule for high aspect wings*:
(*Note that aspect ratio is one of many many characteristics in a wing so there are exceptions to these general rules).
Advantages:
Longer glide,
More efficient upwind,
Larger speed range,
Better lift-drag ratio

Disadvantages:
Lower ease-of-use(typically requires more skill),
More abrupt stalling,
Slower turning,
Last edited by dave1986 on Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby evan » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:43 am

Another thing to consider is that with kiting you ride with the board tilted to edge against the power of the kite. This limits the width of the wing as the wingtip will penetrate the surface all the time if you make them 1m or wider like the sup/pump/wing wings where you ride with the mast vertical most of the time.
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby StellaBlu » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:57 pm

evan wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:43 am
Another thing to consider is that with kiting you ride with the board tilted to edge against the power of the kite. This limits the width of the wing as the wingtip will penetrate the surface all the time if you make them 1m or wider like the sup/pump/wing wings where you ride with the mast vertical most of the time.
Also a high aspect wing generally isn’t going to have as tight a turning radius as a low aspect wing. A gliding drawn out turn with a lot of downwind trajectory could slack your lines (not an issue while winging or surf foiling). With a low aspect foil you can make more of a tight pivoting turn and keep tension in the lines.

You can ride a high aspect wing kiting but you would need to ride it a bit differently than a low aspect wing which (for most people) lends itself more naturally to kiting for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.
Last edited by StellaBlu on Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby Alysum » Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:13 pm

I will report back once I've kited with the new Axis ART799. I'm really looking forward to the extra speed and glide.
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby drsurf » Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:18 pm

Actually high aspect wings have been quite common for years in kitesurfing if you are after speed. At the top end you have the Mikes Lab and Chubanga racing foils and there are quite a few more affordable high aspect fast foils from companies like Moses/SABfoil. There are more choices in smaller high aspect wings from the various foil manufacturers now as they chase every niche of foiling and size of foiler. Many of these smaller HA foils will suit kitefoilers and there are some that are very similar to racy kitefoils as the niche of high wind, high speed wing foiling becomes a thing.

However kitefoiling has some unique characteristics which make certain foil types more suited. For a start wingfoilers are limited to a wing size of around 7m to 8m, you can go up to 23m with a kite. Not that you need to as even a small kite such as a Peak4 5m will be fun in 10knots plus with a good 1000 sq cm surf foil. Also twin skin foil kites are very efficient, low drag and can generate a lot of power, speed and point much higher than inflatable wing foils.

And with kites you can generate a lot of power relatively effortlessly over a long period of time just by actively flying them. You also get to use a higher less disturbed air column which also gives more power so you don't need a HA foil with very low drag characteristics to keep yourself going. If anything, if you have a HA low drag foil, your kite may accelerate you easily beyond your skill level. Compare that with a wingfoil which requires pumping to get onto the foil and retain speed in lulls.

And boards for kitesurfing are just a platform and can be as small as your stance will allow and weight 2kg or less. Even a small prone foil board is larger and they need a wave or tow to get foiling. And with a wing foil board it becomes very bulky compared to a kitefoil board. Having a small board with no real swing weight means manoeuvrability is fantastic and more surfy medium aspect foils suit this.

One more thing. New foils, new wings and new boards can be a fantastic marketing opportunity to the bored masses who want the latest new products after they quickly got bored with last years new products. Do your research and make sure the new thing is actually better and not just better marketing :D
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby mirza23454 » Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:29 pm

I’m loving kiting the relatively small sabfoil/moses w800 (AR 7-8). The turning agility is awesome (better than mid/low aspect naish surf foils I’ve kited before), and the unpowered glide and pump at arbitrary downwind angles is tons of fun! I do have to take care to get low when I carve tight in chop to avoid breaching a wingtip (with a 92cm mast).

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby SMJ » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:12 pm

I agree with most of the points on this thread and agree that high aspect wings are over-hyped for kiting. What's sad is this is carrying over to the manufactures' lines. I fly Lift wings most of the time, and I much prefer their Classic series wings to the high aspect wings. Unfortunately, Lift has discontinued their Classic series low aspect wings.

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby drsurf » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:21 pm

Just wait. Next year will be the year of new surfy, turny wings that will hardly stall. They'll all look like the Moses 633 :lol: :lol:
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby surfbird » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:30 pm

Alysum wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:13 pm
I will report back once I've kited with the new Axis ART799. I'm really looking forward to the extra speed and glide.
Do that! I can't wait .... Please report back here!!

I think we discussing different thing here.

I'm more into riding big swell without any pull from the kite. I never got it to work with smaller or bigger kite-wings, so thats why I'm so keen to know about higher aspect wings :-)


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