Small (below 5m) kites

[jumptheshark]

Question: do you really fly with 9/11m lines?
That is... radical.
Shortest I used is 18m, and with those the 5m would rocket around. But amazing, amazing feeling during tacks of literally holding the kite in my hands.
Even 21m gives a bit of a muffled feeling, although it is a nice compromise for power. 24 feels like 1km now

I'll certainly try 15m then!

Well Im on Peaks so there is 4m of bridle on the small one.

11 m lines on a 3m peak puts the kite 15m from the bar.

It’s personal I’m sure but that’s where I like it. The trade off is that its faster across the window so great for surfing, a little harder for certain tacks.

[jkrug]

the 6M Uno is my favorite kite of all time for foiling. and it's relatively cheap. works for me 15 knots and up. relaunch is very easy, even in rough seas. also have a 4m Uno, but that requires about 30 knots for me, and we don't get wind like that often in my parts. so it's still crisp. a friend who is much lighter than me (him: 150 lbs, me: 200 lbs) uses his 4M whenever I'm on my 6M.

Had read contrasting views on the Uno, so didn't press further.
But had no idea the 4m Uno was so "weak": I am 110Kg, and the Maverick 5m gets my bum on the foil in about 12 knots.
I'd expect a 4m to do the same from about 15 knots, and be having lots of fun by 20.

I do not jump though: I just love to chain duck-tacks/toeside-tacks, and ride swell or bigger waves, with a new high lift 1100sqcm foil.
Maybe with a fast freeride/race foil or for jumping the needed minimum wind is significantly higher?

i can only tell my experiences with the Uno which are nothing but great. I've never read a bad thing about it, but that's not to say others don't have differing views. the Uno definitely isn't a jumper and i think that's what i like most about it; it's lack of power on a foil. i can generate power by whipping it around, but when i don't want power, like on a wave, it's not there and just drifts. a 5m that gets a 110 kg person out in 12 knots? sounds like a fishing story...but ok.

[Indulang]

I'm seriously considering a 7m Neo SLS. How's the bar pressure with the Neo SLS? Besides foiling, I also want to use it with a tt as it supposedly loops super fast and seems like a safe way to learn powered kiteloops. Also, I'm curious about your wind range on the 7m with a tt (& your weight)

5 mtr Neo SLS on order, should have it in 2 months, certainty wont be using it on short lines as someone has mentioned, tried short lines on my old 5mtr and getting up in the lulls was a pain, and short lines make gusty winds even more gusty feeling, long lines on small kites smooth out everything, and as I rate boosting as high priority then short lines are not the best on small kites for that either, I am expecting great results from my new Neo SLS (lightweight + strong) on my foil, the 7mtr SLS NEO is awesome for the foil and for the Ttip, a game changer for me as I am coming away from foil kites and back to foil friendly LEI kites that cross over to the Ttip which many lei one struts just don't do that well at if you want to go boosting high on both foil and Ttip.
I am not a light weight and need superb punch from the first kite dive to get up quickly, and like the OP I much prefer a lighter bar feel, and a kite that will drift and hover.

[Flyboy]

I have been using a Boxer 3.5m in stronger winds. At around 80 kg & a 1000 cm2 wing I find the bottom end to be around 18 knots. At that wind speed it It requires a lot of moving the kite & a very sensitive touch to keep it in the power zone where it's not either back stalling or surging too far forward. You've got to focus on keeping it sheeted out to avoid back stalling, so a lot of the time you are swinging it around with very little power in the kite & relying on the apparent wind of the kite movement to keep you going on the foil.

Around 25 knots is the sweet spot where there is enough power to feel the kite. Approaching 30 knots you get a more locked in feel which is closer to what you would experience with a "more normal" bigger kite. It's definitely an adjustment - much more finicky than using a Peak, but it will reliably re-launch if you happen to drop it.

[azoele]

I’ve been kiting for 20 years and foiling for 4 years and my best relaunch kite is a 4.5 Concept Air wave and I ride it from 14- 25 kts

Hello Brian,

ConceptAir was exactly where I was looking!
I got in touch with Benoit, but he, very honestly, explained that the Wave has quite significant bar pressure, so that made it a no-no for me.
The Wave looked exceptional for my inteded use, and the Firefly too looked very entriguing.

How do you find the bar pressure yourself?

[azoele]

the 6M Uno is my favorite kite of all time for foiling. and it's relatively cheap. works for me 15 knots and up. relaunch is very easy, even in rough seas. also have a 4m Uno, but that requires about 30 knots for me, and we don't get wind like that often in my parts. so it's still crisp. a friend who is much lighter than me (him: 150 lbs, me: 200 lbs) uses his 4M whenever I'm on my 6M.

Had read contrasting views on the Uno, so didn't press further.
But had no idea the 4m Uno was so "weak": I am 110Kg, and the Maverick 5m gets my bum on the foil in about 12 knots.
I'd expect a 4m to do the same from about 15 knots, and be having lots of fun by 20.

I do not jump though: I just love to chain duck-tacks/toeside-tacks, and ride swell or bigger waves, with a new high lift 1100sqcm foil.
Maybe with a fast freeride/race foil or for jumping the needed minimum wind is significantly higher?

i can only tell my experiences with the Uno which are nothing but great. I've never read a bad thing about it, but that's not to say others don't have differing views. the Uno definitely isn't a jumper and i think that's what i like most about it; it's lack of power on a foil. i can generate power by whipping it around, but when i don't want power, like on a wave, it's not there and just drifts. a 5m that gets a 110 kg person out in 12 knots? sounds like a fishing story...but ok.

Sorry if it sounded like a fishing story, did not mean to.
I am not the greatest judge of windpower (by a long shot), but on one of the last outings, the wind was bad, people with 8/9 meters on surfboards (at 70kg) were having a very hard time, and there was barely any swell, so easy sea to navigate without obnoxious currents that steal speed during starting.
Me, I was out with the 5m, suffering only when the others "stalled".
The Mavericks (series I, which I own) are real, absolute b****es to relaunch – no matter what the designer says – by they fly great, and they have ridiculous low end (conversely, being powered with them is not really easy on a foil).
In light wind with the 5m, a downloop does not get me on the foil, it just gets me almost vertical with the board sinking. At that time, curiously, zipping the kite left and right like crazy will eventually get me up and riding. Exactly as the designer had explained to me.
Like with Peaks, there seems to be not too much difference between the 8m and 5m sizes in ability to foil, because the 5m is so much faster than the 8m that it will make up for (at least part) of the missing square meters.

Of course: I would have had much more fun on a 6m or 7m


Now: back on track!
Would you care to share some details on why you like the Uno?
For its price, it honestly can't be beat. That would make it less painful if I make a mistake, I suppose.
Thanks

[azoele]

I have been using a Boxer 3.5m in stronger winds. At around 80 kg & a 1000 cm2 wing I find the bottom end to be around 18 knots. At that wind speed it It requires a lot of moving the kite & a very sensitive touch to keep it in the power zone where it's not either back stalling or surging too far forward. You've got to focus on keeping it sheeted out to avoid back stalling, so a lot of the time you are swinging it around with very little power in the kite & relying on the apparent wind of the kite movement to keep you going on the foil.

Around 25 knots is the sweet spot where there is enough power to feel the kite. Approaching 30 knots you get a more locked in feel which is closer to what you would experience with a "more normal" bigger kite. It's definitely an adjustment - much more finicky than using a Peak, but it will reliably re-launch if you happen to drop it.

Thanks.

That is why I was asking about different kites.

Never had smaller kites before. This 5m is the first kite of this size I own/fly (had a worn out Airush Wave 6m which would just deform terribly after a loop and was horrible to fly), and have no idea how others are built.
The Maverick is a beast, but 18 knots it's already a handful. I can use in higher winds only when the sea is bigger, so lots of attrition to the foil, waves etc., and there's a constant need for power. But it is very brusque, and looping especially is not easy.
The concept of zero-pull is not ingrained in the Maverick (if I really need to loop when I'm powered, I usually ride in the direction of the kite to try to slacken the lines).

So, can you loop the boxer easily in significant winds, like 25 knots?

And: do you own other sizes?
I ask because I had another swim in today because the 10m refused to relaunch (man, some days, I do hate them kites), and am contemplating an easier to relaunch 10 or 12 meter.

Thanks

[azoele]

Question: do you really fly with 9/11m lines?
That is... radical.
Shortest I used is 18m, and with those the 5m would rocket around. But amazing, amazing feeling during tacks of literally holding the kite in my hands.
Even 21m gives a bit of a muffled feeling, although it is a nice compromise for power. 24 feels like 1km now

I'll certainly try 15m then!

Well Im on Peaks so there is 4m of bridle on the small one.

11 m lines on a 3m peak puts the kite 15m from the bar.

It’s personal I’m sure but that’s where I like it. The trade off is that its faster across the window so great for surfing, a little harder for certain tacks.

That is very cool.
I loved my time with the Peaks.

I just don't feel safe with them after a series of swim ins.

But!
But: I still own a 5m, and... the curiosity is growing to re-try it in some easy swell for some "free" surfing

[Flyboy]

I have been using a Boxer 3.5m in stronger winds. At around 80 kg & a 1000 cm2 wing I find the bottom end to be around 18 knots. At that wind speed it It requires a lot of moving the kite & a very sensitive touch to keep it in the power zone where it's not either back stalling or surging too far forward. You've got to focus on keeping it sheeted out to avoid back stalling, so a lot of the time you are swinging it around with very little power in the kite & relying on the apparent wind of the kite movement to keep you going on the foil.

Around 25 knots is the sweet spot where there is enough power to feel the kite. Approaching 30 knots you get a more locked in feel which is closer to what you would experience with a "more normal" bigger kite. It's definitely an adjustment - much more finicky than using a Peak, but it will reliably re-launch if you happen to drop it.

Thanks.

That is why I was asking about different kites.

Never had smaller kites before. This 5m is the first kite of this size I own/fly (had a worn out Airush Wave 6m which would just deform terribly after a loop and was horrible to fly), and have no idea how others are built.
The Maverick is a beast, but 18 knots it's already a handful. I can use in higher winds only when the sea is bigger, so lots of attrition to the foil, waves etc., and there's a constant need for power. But it is very brusque, and looping especially is not easy.
The concept of zero-pull is not ingrained in the Maverick (if I really need to loop when I'm powered, I usually ride in the direction of the kite to try to slacken the lines).

So, can you loop the boxer easily in significant winds, like 25 knots?

And: do you own other sizes?
I ask because I had another swim in today because the 10m refused to relaunch (man, some days, I do hate them kites), and am contemplating an easier to relaunch 10 or 12 meter.

Thanks

I currently own Peaks 6m, 5m, 4m & a quiver of 2015 Best Cabo wave kites. I bought the 3.5 Boxer when I realized that the comfortable high end for foiling with the 4m Peak was around 18 knots. I picked up the (2020) Boxer cheap, thinking like you, that maybe a kite that would be reliably relaunchable in rougher seas would make sense. The Boxer seems comparable to the Cabos in feel ... except of course that it's much smaller/faster/finicky. At that size it's questionable how much difference a one strut "light" kite really makes ... but of course, there aren't a lot of 3 strut 3.5m kites available anyway. I've never tried the 3m Peak, so I can't compare, but I much prefer the feel of my 4m Peak to my 5m or 6m Cabos (for foiling).

The 3.5m Boxer is well made & once I got it set up right & got used to it seems to do the job. Using the same lines I used for my other kites, it was very prone to back stalling. I had to add about 25 cm to the back lines to allow it to perform properly. As I wrote previously, unless you're quite powered up you can't put any any back line tension on the kite - you've got to keep it sheeted out & generate power by moving it fast, looping or sining it, to get speed up on the foil. My guess is that this would be similar on any very small LEI kite.

[Onda]

Great info here guys! I often thought about which kite would be a sensible buy for the 20+ kts wind range on my wave foil.
My smalles kites are a 5 m² Core Section1 and the 4 m Peak4. The 5 m² Section is comfortable up to ca. 22 kts for me (75 kg / Moses 633). I love it, it is super stable and easy-handling (no backstalling in any condition). But at wind of 25 kts or more, I have no kite solution yet.