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Gong foils: discussion

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Re: Gong foils: discussion

Postby azoele » Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:24 pm

GJibb wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:36 pm
Hello friends.
I am wondering if a Fluid LS would be a good step up from a Curve L (Rise M previous to that. I also have a Curve LT).
Not looking for anything performance wise in particular. Typical "more glide, more speed" really, just the next progressive step...
If It helps I'm 250lbs, my quiver is an 8m Slingshot Ghost and a 5m Gong Strutless (along with a garage full of other equipment gathering dust)
Am 3 full kilograms (6 lbs?) shy of you, and written before, I enjoy greatly the L-s.
If your level is up to it, you'll love it more than the L, as it is more lively but still very tolerant.
If your level is not up to it, no real sense in buying it now: better to refine technique and then move to it.

So: be sincere with yourself! :rollgrin:

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Re: Gong foils: discussion

Postby azoele » Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:34 pm

Just trying to contribute quoting what GONG wrote me.

Even though I am 110Kg, they still recommended the M-t with my level.
Of course it is a more difficult wing, but I can only imagine the pleasant increase in glide – and the corresponding speed that is preserved during jibes and tacks – and the compulsory learning period to master such a quick stalling wing :thumb:

The M-t is quite "radical", bordering on the Veloce M for thinness.

Try to pair it with the fabulous Fluid 40 stab, which makes my L-s super stable, but also super playful.
Yes, it is paradoxical, but it is pitch stable, yaw stable, and only partially roll-stable: it needs an initial input to turn, but once you get used to it, it rolls left and right at will. And when it rolls, the Fluid will carve like on rails, making amazing, but amazing toeside tacks.
With the Fast 40 stab it is looser feeling, and "slides", but it requires more effort during tacks as it really wants hip work to turn. The Fluid 40 you just tilt it and there it turns :thumb:
Flyboy wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:18 pm
bitxopalo wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:31 pm
Flyboy, I am more or less on the same point, I have the Curve M and very used to it. Really no need to change unless for the very light... After reading you I'm considering bigger fluid sizes... Just for using under 6knot and small surfing.... Lt or xlt??? Im 70kg

Thanks for your feedback
I don't know if you should go based on my one short session. Perhaps other Fluid users could weigh in with their experiences?

There's nothing I don't like about the Curve M ... but without comparing with other wings it's impossible to make an informed opinion. I previously owned 700 cm2 wings that may have felt more like the Fluid M-T ... but honestly it's too long ago to remember. My guess is that the thinness of the Fluid wing compared to the Curve makes a significant difference. Also, the curve of the Curve may offer more lateral stability. The point of the Fluid was to get better "glide", but although it is "looser" feeling, in the M-T size it doesn't offer the same lift as the Curve M and I would say it requires more wind to stay powered up. It could be that the L-S would be a better wing to approximate the performance of the Curve M but with better speed and glide.

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Re: Gong foils: discussion

Postby kit3surfer » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:03 pm

Hi,
I own both, curve L + curve 39 stab and fluid LS + fluid 40 stab and have not figuered out yet which combo I prefer!
Curve+ curve is not necessarily the slowest. It only accelerates slower than the fluid. Top end speed is nearly the same. You can unleash the curve by putting the fluid stab on it. It will be a bit more slippy, but better acceleration with nearly the same lift. Even better is the fluid+ curve stab combo. Better acceleration and a bit higher topspeed, but needs more concentration. Fluid+ fluid is the most unstable, but once it is locked in at higher speed it is amazing. You can do every move with this combo, but need to be faster than with a curve combo, otherwise you will sink.
When conditions are a bit fickle with bigger waves and messy chop and I want to ride the swell and carve up and down, I would take a curve combo so that I don't have to concentrate on foil behaviour. But on the other side, when it is mostly flat with only little chop, I prefer a fluid combo for speed and glide with less kite pull needed.
Maybe with more training, time and confidence, this will change on day...?
But for now, I enjoy both.

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Re: Gong foils: discussion

Postby azoele » Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:06 am

Hi gang,

just tried for a hour the Fluid M + Fluid 40 combo as a user of Fluid L-s+Fluid 40.
Wind was 9-13 knots on my Maverick II 9m, and Carbon mast v.2 100cm.

PLUSES:
  • Waaay more fun. The foil is more agile, which is very pleasant. Slaloming is quicker and more fun
  • Much less drag: a lot easier - and entertaining- to duck- and toeside-tack as more speed is conserved
  • Less drag coming down waves means it is easier to follow the wave even when underpowered. The Fluid L-s I have to work the kite more.

MINUSES:
  • Less roll stable (that is what gives it the agility to incline the board and turn quicker)
  • Stall is more abrupt: I can recover it, but as am not used to it (L-s stalls abruptly too, but less harshly) I need more time to do it, so it works when I’m higher on the surface. Super fun to recover though, that’s the crazy pumping of the Fluid ;-)
  • Take off requires more speed: at my weight (110kg) I can’t just “pop out of the water” unless I am very powered. It *will* pop out on the spot, but you need to have speed not to have it crash due to stalling immediately. Took me 2/3 tries to get the gist of it. After that, just routine, although the L-s is much easier to pop out of the water with.
  • Can’t find a better description but… Fluid 40 stab feels *too large* now. The tail feels ultra stable, and it feels like it is the “point of resistance” of the foil. I have a feeling it might work much better with the Fluid-H 38 (and that is why they recommend the -H 38 “with the small kite wings” probably).
Also an impression: the M has powerful lift it seems to me. As it was with the veloce, gaining speed gets the wing to push. It feels “more intense” than the L-a actually, go figure. But it does *not* make huge front pressure at 18 knots like the Veloce M (which really, but really needs the Veloce stab to compensate).

So: WOW!
Was ultra bored of my setup, and this reminded me instead of the heady days of the Veloce M (with the Fast 40 stab… ouch!!!) and it’s higher speed in turns and generally hyped up character.

My problem is that I am longing for the M-s now… which is a whole different wing, as (like the M-t) it is 1.2 cm thick vs 1.5 of the M.
M-s and M-t are even thinner than the Veloce M, so it’ll make for some harsh taking off and stalling.
But they must be very, very fun! :D

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Re: Gong foils: discussion

Postby Flyboy » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:28 pm

azoele wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:06 am
Hi gang,

just tried for a hour the Fluid M + Fluid 40 combo as a user of Fluid L-s+Fluid 40.
Wind was 9-13 knots on my Maverick II 9m, and Carbon mast v.2 100cm.

PLUSES:
  • Waaay more fun. The foil is more agile, which is very pleasant. Slaloming is quicker and more fun
  • Much less drag: a lot easier - and entertaining- to duck- and toeside-tack as more speed is conserved
  • Less drag coming down waves means it is easier to follow the wave even when underpowered. The Fluid L-s I have to work the kite more.

MINUSES:
  • Less roll stable (that is what gives it the agility to incline the board and turn quicker)
  • Stall is more abrupt: I can recover it, but as am not used to it (L-s stalls abruptly too, but less harshly) I need more time to do it, so it works when I’m higher on the surface. Super fun to recover though, that’s the crazy pumping of the Fluid ;-)
  • Take off requires more speed: at my weight (110kg) I can’t just “pop out of the water” unless I am very powered. It *will* pop out on the spot, but you need to have speed not to have it crash due to stalling immediately. Took me 2/3 tries to get the gist of it. After that, just routine, although the L-s is much easier to pop out of the water with.
  • Can’t find a better description but… Fluid 40 stab feels *too large* now. The tail feels ultra stable, and it feels like it is the “point of resistance” of the foil. I have a feeling it might work much better with the Fluid-H 38 (and that is why they recommend the -H 38 “with the small kite wings” probably).
Also an impression: the M has powerful lift it seems to me. As it was with the veloce, gaining speed gets the wing to push. It feels “more intense” than the L-a actually, go figure. But it does *not* make huge front pressure at 18 knots like the Veloce M (which really, but really needs the Veloce stab to compensate).

So: WOW!
Was ultra bored of my setup, and this reminded me instead of the heady days of the Veloce M (with the Fast 40 stab… ouch!!!) and it’s higher speed in turns and generally hyped up character.

My problem is that I am longing for the M-s now… which is a whole different wing, as (like the M-t) it is 1.2 cm thick vs 1.5 of the M.
M-s and M-t are even thinner than the Veloce M, so it’ll make for some harsh taking off and stalling.
But they must be very, very fun! :D
OK, but what about the Triton? :coolshades:

There's been very little wind here, so not much foiling ... but I did have 2 sessions on the T1. Weirdly, it might be the easiest foil to water start I've tried. And - of course - no drag. It doesn't track upwind like a "regular" foil and isn't particularly fast. Not sure what direction to go in: higher aspect glide ... or lower aspect playfulness? :-?

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Re: Gong foils: discussion

Postby azoele » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:07 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:28 pm

OK, but what about the Triton? :coolshades:

There's been very little wind here, so not much foiling ... but I did have 2 sessions on the T1. Weirdly, it might be the easiest foil to water start I've tried. And - of course - no drag. It doesn't track upwind like a "regular" foil and isn't particularly fast. Not sure what direction to go in: higher aspect glide ... or lower aspect playfulness? :-?


You are not getting any compassion from me: we're having a "desperate" wind situation here! :D
In almost 2 months probably 5 or 6 kiteable days, which is unheard of... so, very little testing as of late.

Still, right before doing the hour on the Fluid M, I had to have 30 minutes on the T1.

I find it... unique, for lack of a better formulation. And a harsh mistress... I botched hard a footswitch on the Fluid M – something that would have killed me on the T1 – and the GONG just stood there for me while I attempted (and succeeded) at correcting.
The T1 would never have allowed this: you do a mistake, off you go to a hard crash!
-
  • Take Off: my weight is probably higher than yours, so it's not the most lifty foils I've used. I need to get the mast 10cm or so forward than where I put the GONG.
    But i was super impressed by how easy it is to begin foiling. Especially because it doesn't stall: it "sinks" slowly and vertically, giving you all the time in the world to work your kite.
  • Breeching: it is very, very forgiving, I think much more so than the Fluid. And carving hard with a piece of the wing exposed to the air results in... a hard turn! no ventilation-induced stall, just a little loss of support as there's less wing inside the water, plus some noise.
  • Tacking: this was truly my bete noir, because I kept crashing with it and crashed hard. Until I got an epiphany: in tacking I was replicating what I do with the GONG, which requires plenty of body movement and board inclination. You do that with the T1, and it catapults you away... and then jumps out of the water to hit you. :roll:
    But: being gentle (i.e. very little inclination, and little push on the board) has the T1 run circles like the GONG. Once you learn, you can both emulate the GONG (sweeping tacks that can be turned into 360°s at leasure) or go crazy with pinpoint tacks where you basically revolve on yourself. That's cool.
  • Foot switches: very different from a normal foil. Very. Much. Different.
    Takes some time to get the gist of the needed weight transfer, but then they're rewarding. But: never dared yet to perform the heelside to toeside footswitch (a manouver I am weak also on normal foils)... the thought is just scary!
  • Upwind tracking: it actually does track upwind like a normal foil (or so). Point is: it does it in its own way. I had your exact feeling at first: "This thing won't go upwind!!!". Then I learned to just use my feet to incline the board a tiny bit up and down when it is canted on a side, and that is enough to have it point upwind. You don't drop on your back hard and contrast the board with the T1. You just incline the body backwards a little, and let your feet play with the board till you feel it's zipping upwind. Everything seems to happen purely at the feet level with the T1.
What is less cool?
The GONG keeps my legs fresh and keeps me relaxed.
The T1 eats my legs due to the pitch instability, so much so that as soon as I perceive a loss of efficiency in my manouvering I park it on the beach to avoid accidents.
You're always hyped up to control it, and then you ***will*** dare do something stupid on a wave because it is so manouverable... and it will punish you!

What is really bad?
It made my Fluid L-s + Fluid 40 GONG foil feel as exciting... as my kitchen table :nono: hence my quest for a M-s or M-t with Fluid-H38 setup in search of some (saner than that of the T1) excitement :D
My hypothesis is that the T1 (due to also my weight and subsequent not so stellar agility) will always be my "nutcaseish" foil for pure, unadulterated fun and that feeling of "taming the beast".
The higher-specced setup GONG will still not be overly accessible (but still a lot more stable than the T1) but still be very entertaining, and the safer bet when conditions are not too right.
I hope so! :D

And it might work for you too, actually: I enjoyed very much the Fluid M (ok: besides feeling the stabilizer to intrude too much). Loved its stalling behaviour (despite being so brusque at my weight), and enjoyed so much the balance of agility and stability.
The T1 is so different it will not take the place of a fast higher A/R surf foil (not immediately at least... and even then only when you're in tip-top shape: have said it and I'll repeat it, it doesn't like tired legs).

And even if you reach such a level on the T1 that you feel you do not need anymore a standard foil, I would still think there can be a place for two such different foils: one to really measure up yourself against a formidable enemy (which allows you to do nutty stuff!!!), and one which offers very, very high performance, but offering an ultra safe and more stable experience (at least it always feels like that after using the T1 :D ).
For the moment I'm keeping both, am adding a new board just for the T1, and am deciding which GONG wing/stab to add, so that I'll be "set" (last famous words...).

P.S.
there's a video of an old fart (I'm so envious of his riding my only defense is name calling!!!) who rides the T1 like he is on drugs: the man sits on the darned foil, so relaxed it feels like he's about to fall asleep. He foot-switches during tacks, which has stopped my heart the first time I saw it, thinking of how much unstable the thing is.
Watching him foil told me three things: 1) The T1 can be used as a very normal foil; 2) there's a lot I need to learn about the T1. A lot. 3) But after seeing what he did and how, I must accept I am a crappy foiler, and that is that... :roll:

P.P.S.
To the gifted foiler on the T1 of the video I was referring to: Good Sir, if you happen to read this message, please accept my apologies, and ascribe to pure envy my vulgarity: I fell pray to an unrestrained rage at your ease in taming the T1, as your blessed riding exposed mercilessly all my limitations! :D

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Re: Gong foils: discussion

Postby Flyboy » Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:51 am

Azoele, I've got to wonder how much time you've spent on the T1? I have probably spent around 350 - 400 hours on the Curve M, so I'm totally dialled in on it. I've only spent around 30 minutes on the Fluid M-T (in too light wind). Just had my 3rd session on the T1 - about 4.5 hours total.

I'm not finding the T1 particularly hard to ride. As I said before: it's actually the easiest foil to water start I've tried yet. Yes, it's a bit more pitchy and roll/yaw sensitive when you're riding, but I'm now starting to feel pretty relaxed on it. The wing itself is large and thick, so it provides plenty of lift & support. It's just a question of dialling back your body movements a bit as you find the balance point. I AM finding foot switches very difficult - I have the mast about 6 centimetres further forward than with the Curve M and seem to either step off the front of the board, or bury the nose. When I step back quickly to try & avoid this I crash the foil, because there's no support for the back foot. :-?

It's not easy alternating between 3 different foils, especially when windy days are not frequent. I would say that the T1 more resembles the Curve M in performance in jibing and riding the swell. It's very drag-free, but at the same time it doesn't feel particularly fast. It could be that the T1 and the Fluid would make for the most interesting contrast of styles ... but I would be reluctant to give up the Curve M that I'm so comfortable with.

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Re: Gong foils: discussion

Postby azoele » Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:27 am

Think I used it about 7 or 8 times.

Yes, when I used it 3 times in a row, I too secured that feeling of "ah, it can feel stable" and rocked about 19 knots on it.
But using it more rarely, every time it hits you with its instability.

Never tried the Curve M, unfortunately (just the M-t).
But I would never, ever compare the T1 to a Curve M-t or a Fluid M or a Veloce M. Perhaps the only combo very (very...) loosely reminding it could be the Veloce M+Fast 40. But even that would be a gross oversimplification.

On footswitches, the T1 reacts different from common foils.
Common foils tend to immediately lift up the board nose, so the body movement tends to compensate for that, and calls for control of the front of the board first and foremost.
The T1 does not. It wants a super quick "jump", and it wants the back foot to be in control immediately, with the foot giving added – not essential - control.
Once I understood it, my footswitches became much easier.
Plus the T1 allows you to recover from touch downs greatly, which is impressive.

Agree on body movements to be dialled down (and on a general very closed feet stance).
Point is, when carving hard doing it with legs near each other is not very easy, for instance.

Again: to me these foils, they're such different beasts that I do not find ways to compare them really.
Perhaps my body talents are much lesser than yours, which may make my controlling of the T1 not as easy as is it for you.
I mean, just overcoming the waves on the GONG requires a nice push on the back and waiting for the front to pop up. On the T1, change of height happens instantly, so much so that I always have to be careful not to overdo it.
The T1 is unstable on all 3 axes at once all the time.
The GONG (whatever combination – not speaking of the S/Xs ones) always feels incredibly stable.

But again: so interesting to see such different perceptions on the same foil! :thumb:

If you like the Curve M (and I think you have a weight which is more manageable than mine), why don't you go for the S-T Curve? They made it to be a "standard" Curve with lots of agility, but less elitist than the Veloce XS/S and Fluid S.
That would give you a nice bump in performance, less drag, and more fun while not losing your preferred behaviour of the foil.
Or the Fluid M-s :thumb:

Be it what it may, I can't wait to set foot on the T1 though :thumb:
Need to source a M-s soon before I get the bad idea of selling my normal setup :D
Flyboy wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:51 am
Azoele, I've got to wonder how much time you've spent on the T1? I have probably spent around 350 - 400 hours on the Curve M, so I'm totally dialled in on it. I've only spent around 30 minutes on the Fluid M-T (in too light wind). Just had my 3rd session on the T1 - about 4.5 hours total.

I'm not finding the T1 particularly hard to ride. As I said before: it's actually the easiest foil to water start I've tried yet. Yes, it's a bit more pitchy and roll/yaw sensitive when you're riding, but I'm now starting to feel pretty relaxed on it. The wing itself is large and thick, so it provides plenty of lift & support. It's just a question of dialling back your body movements a bit as you find the balance point. I AM finding foot switches very difficult - I have the mast about 6 centimetres further forward than with the Curve M and seem to either step off the front of the board, or bury the nose. When I step back quickly to try & avoid this I crash the foil, because there's no support for the back foot. :-?

It's not easy alternating between 3 different foils, especially when windy days are not frequent. I would say that the T1 more resembles the Curve M in performance in jibing and riding the swell. It's very drag-free, but at the same time it doesn't feel particularly fast. It could be that the T1 and the Fluid would make for the most interesting contrast of styles ... but I would be reluctant to give up the Curve M that I'm so comfortable with.

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Re: Gong foils: discussion

Postby ieism » Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:49 pm

Is anyone riding the new Pro stabs yet, and what are your thoughts on it? I changed from a curve 39 to a pro fluid 42 mostly for weight savings but the difference is quite small. To me it feels like the new stab flies at the same speed but gets there a bit quicker. The whole setup feels more fluid and I get less "shake' from the foil overall. The whistle I had on my Curve is now gone. I'm riding a little narrower stance , but not sure why this is.

Gong does not recommend the pro stab with the Curve M, but it does work. Only wish they had made the new shot fuselage a bit lighter, it feels really heavy compared to all the carbon stuff now.

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Re: Gong foils: discussion

Postby Flyboy » Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:01 am

ieism wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:49 pm
Is anyone riding the new Pro stabs yet, and what are your thoughts on it? I changed from a curve 39 to a pro fluid 42 mostly for weight savings but the difference is quite small. To me it feels like the new stab flies at the same speed but gets there a bit quicker. The whole setup feels more fluid and I get less "shake' from the foil overall. The whistle I had on my Curve is now gone. I'm riding a little narrower stance , but not sure why this is.

Gong does not recommend the pro stab with the Curve M, but it does work. Only wish they had made the new shot fuselage a bit lighter, it feels really heavy compared to all the carbon stuff now.
One thing I've noticed is that my Curve M (with Fast stab) has started whistling at speed. It never did that before. Not sure what would have caused that. I haven't tried the Fluid M-T again as the wind has been shitty and what sessions I've had have been at a spot where coming in & switching gear is difficult. May be able to try the Curve M, Fluid M-T and T1 back-to-back tomorrow to compare.


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