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The SAB kraken has landed

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Foil
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Posts: 1447
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Kiting since: 2000
Weight: 91kg
Local Beach: New Brighton near Liverpool. Open sea with big low tide deep lagoon
and regular at Rhosneigr and Newbrough on Anglesey
Favorite Beaches: New Brighton, Rhosneigr, Fleetwood, Newbrough, Blackrock sands
lake Como (Italy) El Medano
Style: kite foiler since 2017 Ttip since 2000
Gear: My rule to gear choice is "IF IT DONT BOOST ITS NO USE"
Groove Skates 110cm 2022 editions
kraken mast systems 103k and 93k.
Kraken fuse 703k
Duotone SLS Evo's -- 11mtr/9mtr/7mtr/6mtr/ 4mtr RRD.
Duotone 2022 click bars x2,my own custom made lines fitted,
(modified lines now available for the flite99 shod duotone bars)

Bar lines made up to any length in a choice of strengths, power lines, trim lines, pigtails, leader lines, bridal lines, elasticated lines, I make and fit them all, free fit and tune service,
quick turnaround,drop me a message, find me on messenger, Colin Moore.
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Re: The SAB kraken has landed

Postby Foil » Sun May 01, 2022 10:35 am

ok I have rounded up my review and thoughts on the new kraken masts 933k and 103K below.

I have used the kraken masts 93k and 103k, along with the new 703k and 753k fuses, first day to get the set up right and then for a solid 3 hours of hard fast carving and boosting fun in building winds that made me change down to my 9mtr Evo on my 110cm kite foil board
I have owned and used most of the moses masts, series 1 and 2 over the last 4 years, and most of the kitefoil wing range, I weigh 90kg and only kite foil, love speed, waves and boosting all the time, I am not light so put a lot of stress on my kit, some (many) dodgy hard landings make me wince and wonder when my small mast to fuse connection will give way given the abuse I sometimes subject it to.
Sometimes when I have used my 101 mast in turbulent water instability can be felt, but not as bad as I have experienced on the 91, I have always had to put up with limitations to my speed when in less than ideal water conditions, the nervous feeling of my less than solid mast holds me back at times, especially when bearing off deep downwind to reach full speed, the 91 mast just felt like a pool noodle when pushed hard, turbulent water had me believing I had a faulty 91 mast, but I discovered many heavier riders had these instability issues if conditions were not ideal, after buying a number of 91cm masts over the years hoping they would get better I gave up on the 91 and stuck to the 101, which has been the best mast for me, but with the kraken mast have they finally cracked it for guys like me?

O my god! its a yes from me!
The weight issue which I thought may be a real issue turned out to be no issue at all, and if that's the price to pay for the experience I had today then well done SAB, you have done a great job for me, trying one, flying one, pushing for speed and not hitting any drag or spin out issues holding me back like the 2 series masts certainly do when used hard under kite power.
Jumping with the kraken is to experience landings that feel much more secure, carving hard and fast deep lines at top speed with no slip or spin out like the 2 series masts.

For the first time I am able to keep bearing off downwind over choppy water feeling hard fast acceleration that is eye watering but without any overwhelming feeling of instability building as speed builds, then able to keep that speed to carve hard up into wind and then use that new found speed to boost high and very long knowing that the landing will never damage the mast is a great relief, the feeling entering the water with such a stiff mast is felt instantly, I can certainly feel the 1 series mast deflect if I enter the water at the wrong angle or too fast, the new found solid stability from both kraken masts has for the fist time allowed me to instantly throw in a loop to carve hard downwind or upwind like on rails, so good to feel it so securely locked into the line I choose to take, no wibbles no worry, no slowing down.
These are big differences for me,
Pauline my wife and someone who tells it like it is, even noticed the extra speed I was keeping up, fastest she has seen me go, especially in the turns and the boosting height and perfectly landed dry entries I made, O! and the smile on my face as I came ashore, and I was worn out after my session which I put down to the average speed I was able to keep up, pushing me to work harder, more like a good work out, so that's another positive.

The kraken kit is not needed for everyone, owners of the earlier series can still have a great experience on their kit,
but if your heavy, maybe 90kg or over who loves to boost big and push hard and fast, always using foot straps, or anyone diving into the wing foil department, or trying the windsurf foil experience then kraken makes a lot of sense, the worry of maybe a slower less efficient mast are a worry no more, the kraken masts are stiffer, faster, even cheaper when buying a few lengths after the initial base plate and quick release pin purchase
The niggly little issues like the loose front mast to fuse screw are no more, and the ever present fuse corrosion that gets quite annoying as it devours the fuse over time should now have been eliminated with the added zinc anode.

The weight issue is a price to pay that will be the reason many will use to shy away, It made me think in a negative way as well, but as its turned out its no issue at all, yes of course you can feel it as you pick up your full board with one hand to balance the whole rig on your shoulder for the walk to the water, but its a small price to pay for the positives.

To add to this round up, the two fuses I used were the 703k and the 753k the faster fuse certainly feels like its the 653k but this was attached to the 103k mast, so its likely to be a combination of both factors, super stiff longer mast and longer stiffer fuse leading to great stability at speed.

dave1986
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Re: The SAB kraken has landed

Postby dave1986 » Sun May 01, 2022 7:17 pm

Foil wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 10:35 am
"well done SAB, you have done a great job for me, trying one, flying one, pushing for speed and not hitting any drag or spin out issues holding me back like the 2 series masts certainly do when used hard under kite power."
Thanks for the detailed review Foil.

The Kraken gear sounds great, but do you really think that SABfoil have achieved both the stiffness of the 2 series masts, and the speed of the 1 series masts?
After all, the same carbon mast material is being used and the same laws of physics apply. I would be amazed if tbey have managed this and can't think of a way it could have been achieved.

Stiffness and drag should be quite easily and scientifically compared between different masts.
Drag test: Measure the thickness and chord of the Kraken masts (both dimensions) at a few points along the length of the mast and compare with previous masts.

Stiffness test: Bolt the mast plate to a wall, then hang some heavy weights on the fuselage. Measure the deflection. Do same for the older masts and compare.

I suspect that the Kraken masts are a hybrid of the 1 and 2 series (I.e. fatter than the 1 series, but skinnier than 2 series), and I also suspect that the beefed-up mast to fuselage connection is a benefit for strength and stiffness, but will increase drag.
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Foil
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1447
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:44 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Weight: 91kg
Local Beach: New Brighton near Liverpool. Open sea with big low tide deep lagoon
and regular at Rhosneigr and Newbrough on Anglesey
Favorite Beaches: New Brighton, Rhosneigr, Fleetwood, Newbrough, Blackrock sands
lake Como (Italy) El Medano
Style: kite foiler since 2017 Ttip since 2000
Gear: My rule to gear choice is "IF IT DONT BOOST ITS NO USE"
Groove Skates 110cm 2022 editions
kraken mast systems 103k and 93k.
Kraken fuse 703k
Duotone SLS Evo's -- 11mtr/9mtr/7mtr/6mtr/ 4mtr RRD.
Duotone 2022 click bars x2,my own custom made lines fitted,
(modified lines now available for the flite99 shod duotone bars)

Bar lines made up to any length in a choice of strengths, power lines, trim lines, pigtails, leader lines, bridal lines, elasticated lines, I make and fit them all, free fit and tune service,
quick turnaround,drop me a message, find me on messenger, Colin Moore.
Brand Affiliation: None
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Re: The SAB kraken has landed

Postby Foil » Mon May 02, 2022 6:26 pm

tested the mast flex on the 93k as it was the 91 mast I had big issues with, far to flexible for my 90kg weight,
even when using the smaller 550 wing,
I remember how much the 91 mast flexed when bolted to a large sheet of thick plywood with me stood on the plywood with the fuse attached to the mast with me holding each end of the fuse and trying to turn/twist the mast, is was silly flexible, so repeating the same test I was shocked by the 93k, it's solid !! no flex to report, unbelievable improvement,
but remember the kraken masts are not made like the old series 1 and 2, the new method using the kit shown a few weeks ago has resulted in these new masts, and they are nothing like what we have had before,
the big points to remember is the incredible off wind stability at speed, instead of instability increasing as speeds were rising it just held the line, and then the real one that shocked me was at top speed going straight into a hard cave with an aggressive kite loop to maintain speed, the softer masts would just let go(ventilate) as soon as sideways pressure was applied doing this with such force,
and then loading up for a boost -fast and deep, a hard carve off a wave lip would have the old masts making the same noise on release as a ruler being flexed down on a desk top and let go suddenly, series 2 masts ventiate even when you load up for a good boost and happens so fast its hard to recover.
Now for the first time landings can now be done without the mast flexing as you enter the surface, which many times made for a spin out ventilation issue,
these new masts allow me to land with more reassurance of a clean entry. the solid feel i instantly felt on my first jump using the 93k had me just going silly crazy with boosting at every opportunity to keep feeling this new improved sensation and trying different ways to land dry.
Get a go on one, and smile all day! I did.
Last edited by Foil on Tue May 03, 2022 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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fluidity
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Re: The SAB kraken has landed

Postby fluidity » Tue May 03, 2022 5:44 am

dave1986 wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 7:17 pm
... really think that SABfoil have achieved both the stiffness of the 2 series masts, and the speed of the 1 series masts?
After all, the same carbon mast material is being used and the same laws of physics apply. I would be amazed if they have managed this and can't think of a way it could have been achieved.
Maybe they used a bad composite layup first time around. I haven't made one (yet) but you certainly can't just throw even prepreg woven at a mast and expect it to work. The side loads need unidirectional and the tip twist loads need some biaxial. And then you need a woven skin to stop fibres pulling and the core needs to be designed to enhance the strength of the outer layers. Maybe SAAB just had a bad layup previously? foil's comment about previous twist is indicating they had no biax or rotated woven in the mix previously.

dave1986
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Re: The SAB kraken has landed

Postby dave1986 » Tue May 03, 2022 7:05 am

fluidity wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 5:44 am
dave1986 wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 7:17 pm
... really think that SABfoil have achieved both the stiffness of the 2 series masts, and the speed of the 1 series masts?
After all, the same carbon mast material is being used and the same laws of physics apply. I would be amazed if they have managed this and can't think of a way it could have been achieved.
Maybe they used a bad composite layup first time around. I haven't made one (yet) but you certainly can't just throw even prepreg woven at a mast and expect it to work. The side loads need unidirectional and the tip twist loads need some biaxial. And then you need a woven skin to stop fibres pulling and the core needs to be designed to enhance the strength of the outer layers. Maybe SAAB just had a bad layup previously? foil's comment about previous twist is indicating they had no biax or rotated woven in the mix previously.
Poor carbon layup could be the case. However, I would be surprised because SABfoil are experts in working with carbon. They have more history and experience working with carbon and making hydrofoils than most other brands.

Foil
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Posts: 1447
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:44 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Weight: 91kg
Local Beach: New Brighton near Liverpool. Open sea with big low tide deep lagoon
and regular at Rhosneigr and Newbrough on Anglesey
Favorite Beaches: New Brighton, Rhosneigr, Fleetwood, Newbrough, Blackrock sands
lake Como (Italy) El Medano
Style: kite foiler since 2017 Ttip since 2000
Gear: My rule to gear choice is "IF IT DONT BOOST ITS NO USE"
Groove Skates 110cm 2022 editions
kraken mast systems 103k and 93k.
Kraken fuse 703k
Duotone SLS Evo's -- 11mtr/9mtr/7mtr/6mtr/ 4mtr RRD.
Duotone 2022 click bars x2,my own custom made lines fitted,
(modified lines now available for the flite99 shod duotone bars)

Bar lines made up to any length in a choice of strengths, power lines, trim lines, pigtails, leader lines, bridal lines, elasticated lines, I make and fit them all, free fit and tune service,
quick turnaround,drop me a message, find me on messenger, Colin Moore.
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Re: The SAB kraken has landed

Postby Foil » Tue May 03, 2022 7:22 am

fluidity wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 5:44 am
dave1986 wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 7:17 pm
... really think that SABfoil have achieved both the stiffness of the 2 series masts, and the speed of the 1 series masts?
After all, the same carbon mast material is being used and the same laws of physics apply. I would be amazed if they have managed this and can't think of a way it could have been achieved.
Maybe they used a bad composite layup first time around. I haven't made one (yet) but you certainly can't just throw even prepreg woven at a mast and expect it to work. The side loads need unidirectional and the tip twist loads need some biaxial. And then you need a woven skin to stop fibres pulling and the core needs to be designed to enhance the strength of the outer layers. Maybe SAAB just had a bad layup previously? foil's comment about previous twist is indicating they had no biax or rotated woven in the mix previously.
looking how the sport has moved on over the last few years then yes Moses had to move on and keep up with the increasing loads that their masts are now being asked to support, remember we started with tiny front wings and only kite foiling was being practiced, but as soon as the slightly larger wings came along 3 years ago then i was having stability issues with the softer 91 mast, the masts were being laid up by hand using an incredible number of hand cut carbon pieces, the 101 mast had many many more lay up pieces to give better stiffness which is noticeable, but the molds were not the big steel ones they are now using for the kraken, all the pictures are out there still available from 2016 even a old moses video of the old masts being made, in the video you can see the production area also showing the helicopter blades being made in the same room using the same type of blade sticker but in yellow not the red we remember on our masts,i think some of the yellow stickers made their way on to the early curvy kitefoil masts,
so with SAB industries making our kit and now the new masts in the new way and given all their history in making carbon high performance racing helicopters and speed boats then I for one think they are well placed to find the solutions and big enough to develop them, it will have taken them a long time to develop this new mast system and all the component parts along with testing and production.

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Re: The SAB kraken has landed

Postby airsail » Tue May 03, 2022 8:57 am

If Sabfoil is so bloody good at carbon fibre component manufacturing, why couldn’t they build a full carbon mast rather than a thing with an alloy plate attached.
I had contemplated changing from my Naish foils but the alloy plate mount is a deal breaker. I’ll stick with Naish and upgrade to the new CFS full carbon fuselage, no disassembly ever required.
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Re: The SAB kraken has landed

Postby Lamilu » Wed May 04, 2022 2:39 am

For those wingers that still want a 1 piece carbon mast isnt the Slingshot system compatible with Sabfoil wings?

grigorib
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Re: The SAB kraken has landed

Postby grigorib » Wed May 04, 2022 4:32 am

Lamilu wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 2:39 am
For those wingers that still want a 1 piece carbon mast isnt the Slingshot system compatible with Sabfoil wings?
It is compatible but Slingshot wings are pretty awesome too, masts are stiff…why bother looking at Moses wings

Foil
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Posts: 1447
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:44 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Weight: 91kg
Local Beach: New Brighton near Liverpool. Open sea with big low tide deep lagoon
and regular at Rhosneigr and Newbrough on Anglesey
Favorite Beaches: New Brighton, Rhosneigr, Fleetwood, Newbrough, Blackrock sands
lake Como (Italy) El Medano
Style: kite foiler since 2017 Ttip since 2000
Gear: My rule to gear choice is "IF IT DONT BOOST ITS NO USE"
Groove Skates 110cm 2022 editions
kraken mast systems 103k and 93k.
Kraken fuse 703k
Duotone SLS Evo's -- 11mtr/9mtr/7mtr/6mtr/ 4mtr RRD.
Duotone 2022 click bars x2,my own custom made lines fitted,
(modified lines now available for the flite99 shod duotone bars)

Bar lines made up to any length in a choice of strengths, power lines, trim lines, pigtails, leader lines, bridal lines, elasticated lines, I make and fit them all, free fit and tune service,
quick turnaround,drop me a message, find me on messenger, Colin Moore.
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Re: The SAB kraken has landed

Postby Foil » Wed May 04, 2022 8:42 am

grigorib wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 4:32 am
Lamilu wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 2:39 am
For those wingers that still want a 1 piece carbon mast isnt the Slingshot system compatible with Sabfoil wings?
It is compatible but Slingshot wings are pretty awesome too, masts are stiff…why bother looking at Moses wings
Moses/now SAB, used to make the carbon masts and wings for slingshot, in fact many brands asked moses to make their carbon parts, the kit supplied to slingshot was exactly the same Moses stuff but with a slingshot sticker applied, moses stopped suppling slingshot a while back.

Just sold my last SAB full carbon 101 mast last night, brilliant lightweight carbon mast, but for me the kraken system has it well beaten for anyone like me. I did not believe that could be the case, and many will still believe that, and in many cases they will be right, the kraken for their style and needs is just not justified, but for others it will be the best choice.

Good thing to come from this is lots of great light weight 91 and 101 masts will be on the market, mine went in under 2 hours.


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