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Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

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ieism
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Re: Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

Postby ieism » Tue May 03, 2022 5:55 pm

I see a guy with a Kauper xt kite often, and he can ride before I can. I think that would be a kite I would buy for lightwind if I only foiled.
It looks fairly easy to set up compared to some other foilkites and it's not extremely expensive. It also looks fun to ride.
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Re: Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue May 03, 2022 6:36 pm

Exactly :thumb:

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Re: Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

Postby joriws » Tue May 03, 2022 7:43 pm

If you want to go low on lei, I was surprised how well Dlab 15m aluula worked in a waste wind.

It behaved more like a foil kite i.e. drifting back not hindenburging. Powerwise I rode it against Sonic3 11m, both barely flying. So very tricky to get on foil and flight speed. Dlab hovered but refused to turn towards zenith, so via downloop riding. Relaunches were possible on power zone. Handheld meter 2.5-3m/s on beach and above head (think relaunches)

Also same Dlab on winter flew quite nicely when "lw" eleveights dropped from the sky. But on race course 15m Sonic blew Dlab from the race track..

And the price, Sonics are much cheaper.. :lol:
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Re: Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue May 03, 2022 7:59 pm

ieism wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 5:55 pm
I see a guy with a Kauper xt kite often, and he can ride before I can. I think that would be a kite I would buy for lightwind if I only foiled.
It looks fairly easy to set up compared to some other foilkites and it's not extremely expensive. It also looks fun to ride.
For lower budget but still similar marginal wind abilities, you can have a serious look at the Skycountry Spirit v2 , that can be manufactured in super light 27gr (and which production is restarting now).

To me Pulsion, Spirit v2 and Falcon have approx the same marginal wind results. Lower low ends compared to soul, nova , hyperlinks, pansh (and peaks)
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Re: Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

Postby Agnar Jensen » Wed May 04, 2022 9:03 am

Peter_Frank, double skin witt not too high AR, is that for example the FS Soul or Airwave Koala?

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Re: Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed May 04, 2022 11:12 am

Agnar Jensen wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 9:03 am
Peter_Frank, double skin witt not too high AR, is that for example the FS Soul or Airwave Koala?

Hi Agnar

Definitely not the Soul, it is not a lightwind kite, not even close as too heavy, and it does not give that much spike either.
An easy kite, good range, and can stay afloat on the water for quite some time yes - but not a lightwind kite.

I dont know about the Koala, havent seen anyone riding this one here.
The (older) Kitech FRS was easy too, good range, but not good lowend. I suspect the Koala to be a bit similar - but have no idea...

Racekites has the best lowend of course, but often build a tad too strong because they are always ridden extremely powered.
And the superhigh AR can be a handful in marginal winds, leading to bowties and not easy to loop to save from dropping - you often have to back them into the window to keep'em flying.

So superlight material (fragile), sufficient AR to give powerspike when looped, and not so high that it has drawbacks in terms of turning/looping efficiently (not an issue for racers) with power.

I dont have an overview of which brands offering this, sorry, I just know what works the best in real life for marginal winds, for me.
And I know for sure, that very few offer this type - as the cost versus being more fragile is a turnoff for most :wink:
But can be made on demand.

8) Peter

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Re: Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

Postby joe f » Wed May 04, 2022 11:35 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 11:12 am
it does not give that much spike either.
It is really interesting to see how we all perceive things differently.

I admit that I haven't used other twin skin foils, but I find that the Soul has a massive power spike if you loop it. If you really crank it round, it isn't mental but a wide swoop pulls v hard in my experience. This is actually one of the reasons why I prefer my Peaks as the spike is so much lighter on them (maybe just because they are smaller - I only have 3,4 and 5m whereas I use the 9m Soul as a lightwind kite). I can therefore fly the Peaks much harder without fear of being yanked downwind too hard. The irony is, I love that spike in power in super light winds and find I can get going in crazy light winds on the Soul where I have no chance with the Peaks, which just don't pull my fat arse out of the water.

I am not saying you are wrong - just a different perception. We all have personal preferences and there is no single kite that is perfect for everyone.
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Re: Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

Postby nothing2seehere » Wed May 04, 2022 11:53 am

I think the difference here is between light and 'ultimate' light wind. Souls give a decent power spike but the power is spread over the time it takes for the kite to fly through the window rather than mainly being in the turning moment with peaks and this is why they are said to have a small spike in comparison to a high aspect kite. Regardless small souls (12m and below) have no reason to be considered when looking for the ultimate kite.

That said, when Armin from flysurfer shot a video with the Canadian kite bloggers, he chose a 15m Soul to get going (just) in 4.7knots (measured at 20m above ground level) and compensated with a much larger hydrofoil wing rather than going on a bigger kite. Its worth pointing out that in that area, they typically fly long kite lines too though and I suspect he was choosing out of the kites the team of bloggers owned rather than looking specifically at what might be the best. I suspect he might have chosen the soul or a sonic anyway simply because of the easier handling, as the spot he filmed this had onshore wind so the early part of the video shows him swimming out.

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Re: Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

Postby leeuwen » Wed May 04, 2022 12:52 pm

Back to the original UFO question:
You also need to take into account how heavy someone is.
For low wind foiling at some point you are limited by getting enough pull to get on the board.
The max size for the UFO is 11M and that is probably enough for someone of say max 60KG to go extremely low end like 7 knots.
However, if you are 90-100 KG its probably just barely enough to get on the board at 8-9 knots.
The people in the second category need, for tube kites, about 15M like the gong strutless to get to 7kn. At least that is what I am seeing on the beach here.
At about the same time (+-7kn) I can go out with my 11M ultralight twinskin (Kauper Falcon) at 75KG (+winter gear).
My foil kite stays better in the air then the no-strut by a small margin but as mentioned: very lightweight fabric is fragile and I would not recommend it if you are on a stone/rock beach for launch/land.

That being said. If I would really want to go out often in 7 knot days I would seriously consider getting a race setup.
IMHO regular/free riding and messing around starts to be fun at about 9 knots where you can play and try out things and aren't afraid to fall because getting on the board is a struggle.
Racing does look like fun to me 6-7 knots assuming you have enough skill to do consistent tacks in low wind.

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Re: Ultimate lightwind kite for foiling? UFO or Single Skin

Postby dave1986 » Wed May 04, 2022 12:57 pm

joe f wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 11:35 am
Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 11:12 am
it does not give that much spike either.
It is really interesting to see how we all perceive things differently.

I admit that I haven't used other twin skin foils, but I find that the Soul has a massive power spike if you loop it. If you really crank it round, it isn't mental but a wide swoop pulls v hard in my experience. This is actually one of the reasons why I prefer my Peaks as the spike is so much lighter on them (maybe just because they are smaller - I only have 3,4 and 5m whereas I use the 9m Soul as a lightwind kite). I can therefore fly the Peaks much harder without fear of being yanked downwind too hard. The irony is, I love that spike in power in super light winds and find I can get going in crazy light winds on the Soul where I have no chance with the Peaks, which just don't pull my fat arse out of the water.

I am not saying you are wrong - just a different perception. We all have personal preferences and there is no single kite that is perfect for everyone.
Everything is relative. Flysurfer Peak kites have one of the lowest power spikes of any kite available. So in comparison to the Peak the Flysurfer Soul has a big power spike (yet not as much power spike as higher aspect foil kites).

Power spike becomes the most important and critical factor when the wind gets to the very lightest between 4knots and 6knots (along with lightness of kite of course).
As has been mentioned already, race foil kites have the most power spike due to their fast flying and efficiency. I find that I can fly even with a 18m ultralight race kite in 3knots (as long as the wind is smooth without turbulence), but I still need 5knots to get enough power spike to get me up onto the board.

Riding in 4 to 6 knots with a kite that doesn't have much power spike is normally not possible.

Medium and low aspect foil kites generally have less power spike and less efficiency compared with high aspect race foil kites, but they are normally easier to handle, especially in light or unstable winds. That explains why the Flysurfer Peak has very little power spike (so needs a bit more wind than a race kite to get you up onto a board), yet the Peaks are incredibly stable and easy to handle even in very unstable and gusty winds.


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