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Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

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knyfe
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Re: Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

Postby knyfe » Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:12 am

I had drift issues coming from edges and solved that with clouds. They drift like king for foiling. I also don’t use them for anything else.

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Re: Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

Postby rnelias » Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:31 am

Aspiremr wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:11 am
I haven’t read the entire thread. If this has already been said, please forgive me.

I have a quiver of souls. Had the same challenges when learning to gybe. It seemed every time I tried my kite was behind me, slack lines, and dropped out of the sky. I think for 6 months every session i swam more than I kited.
weird... are you saying you're front stalling a foil kite? It's not a simple task...

Soul's really have a tendency to overfly a little bit but the wind quickly blows the kite back to a more neutral position in the sky. If you're having a strong overfly tendency you can easily correct by trimming the kite or, if the last case, check your bridle (mixer test).

In very light wind these kites don't like to be sheeted in too much. You must fly them with some finesse and let them "breathe" (fly) freely. If you sheet in too much, it'll start to back stall. Sometimes it's desired since it produces a ton of pull when you back stall the kite and let it fly back to zenith (a water start technique for very light wind).

For gybes (in very light wind) it's easier to use downloops. Start with the kite at zenith, sheet in to produce some line tension and pull it hardly with the front hand. You can even pull straight from the lines to make the kite react faster (good for bigger sizes).

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Re: Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

Postby leeuwen » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:24 am

rnelias wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:31 am
Aspiremr wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:11 am
I have a quiver of souls. Had the same challenges when learning to gybe. It seemed every time I tried my kite was behind me, slack lines, and dropped out of the sky. I think for 6 months every session i swam more than I kited.
weird... are you saying you're front stalling a foil kite? It's not a simple task...
It is super easy to "front stall" any kite when doing a jibe:
Only move the board in the new direction when jibing but not the kite.
I think the hard thing when jibing is that the kite timing changes with wind speed.
In general it goes like this:
1) in high winds the board goes first, then the kite
2) in medium winds both go about at the same time
3) in low winds the kite must go first and in very low winds it must also be looped

If you don't adhere to 3 you remove all tension from the lines with the jibe and the kite cannot be steered and will continue to go behind/upwind of you until it stalls.
I am reasonably sure that is what Aspiremr is describing.

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Re: Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

Postby nothing2seehere » Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:55 pm

rnelias wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:11 pm
nothing2seehere wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:08 pm
I recommend you give it (land the kite trailing edge into the water and try restarting) a go next time then - and film the results. 8)

Not claiming that single strut kites can't be reverse launched. Just saying that if you do it poorly (and I've done it a few times where I haven't reversed the kite high enough before letting it spin) and they fall trailing edge down then there isn't the buoyancy you get with a multi strut kite to keep enough canopy above the water to hot launch. You just can't get enough line tension then to pull the kite out of the water so its swim time.

You can get the same problem with a regular style relaunch in light wind too. Pull to hard on a steering line and it can fall back on the trailing edge. Its a light wind problem more than a single strut problem - its just you get bitten in conditions that a regular kite wouldn't often be trying to fly in.
Unfortunately I don't have any reverse relaunch recorded but already did with my Boxer and my old Alpha a ton of times. Even other 3-struct kites reverse launch easily as Jake shows with a Reach and you can keep trying forever as the kite will not sink. The secret is that you must produce some line tension to give a hard back line pull, thus, for deep water, you must use the foil board against the kite or even paddle backwards a little bit.

I have both kites, Soul and Boxer. In fact, Soul is also very easy to relaunch, if it crashes untangled and there's some wind available, of course. My point is that LEI's are undoubtedly safer. With 2-skin kites, if the wind shuts off, you have a 15 minutes window to decide: "should I keep trying or start a self rescue?". With a LEI kite you can stay floating on water forever, waiting the wind come back :lol: Therefore, it'll depend a lot on your local spot conditions. In my case, I've decided that it would be safer (and more productive) keep using LEI's and leave the Souls for occasions that I judge is safer even for someone that is not so used with foil kites (my case).

By changing a Soul for an 1-struct (or a light 3-struct) kite you'd be changing efficiency for safety and peace of mind to focus on your progress with the board ( my 0.02 ;) )

Regarding the other options 0-struct and Peaks, again, forget about them if you're not into foil surfing, they'll make things even worse in the learning stage...
Not sure it you are trolling but I'd almost pay money to see someone reverse launch a trailing edge down LEI! :o

Seen it happen by accident a few times to foil kites when people are learning self landing and it normally results in a birds nest of lines to sort out.

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Re: Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

Postby rnelias » Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:53 pm

nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:55 pm
Not sure it you are trolling but I'd almost pay money to see someone reverse launch a trailing edge down LEI! :o

Seen it happen by accident a few times to foil kites when people are learning self landing and it normally results in a birds nest of lines to sort out.
No joking, or I'm not understanding your situation very well.

TE on water in light wind, you just wait for the kite reach the power zone, right downwind of you, and hot launch it by pulling the front lines together. Reverse launch makes no sense in this case as the kite is already pointing in the right direction. Usually, piece of cake to relaunch.

LE on water, you just try a reverse (hot) launch, as shown in the Jake's Instagram post. Requires some technique but is not rocket science.

Maybe you're having some tangle issues, but the hardest situation to relaunch a tube kite is the combination of 1) light wind, 2) heavy and higher AR kites (big air with 5-structs) and 3) when they crash with the LE touching the water. These kites are usually heavier and don't come off the water and rotate easily but hot launch is very doable, if there's enough wind and they crash in the TE. The only case a tube kite may struggle to relaunch is for 0-struct kites like UFOs and Clouds as they don't have nothing to raise the rip stop from the water.

But relaunch in the power zone is mostly used in light wind conditions. In other cases the tradicional approach, on the edge of the wind window, is safer.

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Re: Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

Postby rnelias » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:06 pm

leeuwen wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:24 am

It is super easy to "front stall" any kite when doing a jibe:
Only move the board in the new direction when jibing but not the kite.
I think the hard thing when jibing is that the kite timing changes with wind speed.
In general it goes like this:
1) in high winds the board goes first, then the kite
2) in medium winds both go about at the same time
3) in low winds the kite must go first and in very low winds it must also be looped

If you don't adhere to 3 you remove all tension from the lines with the jibe and the kite cannot be steered and will continue to go behind/upwind of you until it stalls.
I am reasonably sure that is what Aspiremr is describing.
Thanks God I've never had a front stall with my foil kites. I can imagine the spaghetti of bridle lines :lol: :lol: :lol:

I suppose it's easier when learning jumps, as we can easily mess with the timing to send the kite back for landing but, for gybes, maybe if you wait too much to redirect the kite and keep the board straight downwind, because, if we let the bar and release tension, the wind usually makes the kite drift to the correct position. The only behavior I've quickly noted, compared with tube kites, is the overfly tendency. It seems the kite stays right behind my neck plane :D

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Re: Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

Postby IWB2 » Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:36 pm

Nelis wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:16 pm
Hi All,

I've gotten frustrated with my beloved Soul 10m. Yes, it's a love-hate relationship. I love how it's rock stable at zenith in anything over 8kts and gets my foiling super reliable at 10kts. However now I find that as I start to try new stuff (tacking and hammering through the gybes harder) generally be less careful and more playful, as I start to do this and drop the kite the relaunch percentage is unacceptable. Mostly it drops because of lack of line tension, which causes it to go down in an odd position. I sail in a choppy place, so it needs to be back up within around 3 minutes otherwise I'm f*cked. After this many swims in, I'm kinda done with it.

I'll probably cry myself to sleep every night if I decide to sell it. As replacements I'm thinking either UFO V2 or Alpha V2 in 8m. I think those should get me foiling comfortably at 10 kts on a Levitaz Cruizer. I'm comfortable loop starting the Soul, as well as getting going with a 4m Peak4 on 12m lines in around 13kts, so I should be able to manage to get going on an 8 like that.

The goal should be to feel a bit more unlimited and able to experiment with new tricks without the fear of a big swim in at open sea. I kinda scared of the lack of upwind ability of both these kites but the UFO especially. I find the lack of upwind ability of a Peak4 seriously limiting for instance and am curious how these compare. Having used the Peak, I also know the importance of light weight on performance, so in that sense the choice should be UFO. On the other hand, the Soul did sometimes fulfill a duty as higher wind twintip machine, which the UFO definetely can not do. The Alpha V2 seems to be able to do a little double duty at least. The Alpha looks like a very well built kite, and the shape looks very slick and proportionate in the sky. Not sure of the weight penalty on the Alpha in comparision to the UFO though...

I remember from my early foiling days with Liquid Force Solos I dreaded the constant tipping over at the wind window at slight downwind angles, and having to correct them all the time. A foil kite does not do that, how are the Alpha and UFO in that regard?

Sorry for the long rambling. Looking for general advice, because I can't make up my mind.

Cheers, Nelis
Foils for sure have their place in kiting, but sometimes the LEIs tick off more boxes and become the preferred choice in certain situations. I have had the chance to ride the Ozone Alpha V2 8m on 23m and 27m lines and was impressed with the performance for both foiling and twintip riding in waves. The twintip riding and boosting well exceeded my expectations as I wasnt expecting this kite to be so good... . The riding in waves on the twintip in onshore conditions was very impressive as the kite was light, looped, drifted nicely and worked upwind nicely. I have also used this Alpha V2 for foiling and expected it to be good as the V1 10m I rode was very good for foiling. The Alphas v1 and v2 on a foil go upwind with ease, not to the level of a foil kite but easy enough. I think the Alphas work really nice off the breeze as well, when working a wave on a TT or foil.

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Re: Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

Postby rnelias » Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:28 pm

Here's the short session I had today. Wind was sub 10k from 3:00 to 4:00PM, according to the airport's info.

Boxer 9m was enough but in marginal conditions (had to work the kite sometimes) with my wing (850cm^2/73kg). Soul 12m would surely be easier but not safer, in this condition, as I was expecting the wind to suddenly drop and I was rinding alone.
anemometro-gig-18-07-2022.PNG
garmin-18-07-2022.PNG
garmin-18-07-2022.PNG (283.81 KiB) Viewed 492 times

Bayview250
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Re: Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

Postby Bayview250 » Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:34 pm

Exhibit a and b for strutless relaunch in light air. 2nd vid is under 8 knots by the look of the sea state.

Worst case, you’ve got something to float on if you do put them in the water.



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Re: Bye Soul, hi UFO or Alpha maybe?

Postby Bayview250 » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:47 am

Hey Nellis, I’m a 2nd year foiler. Re the vids above, I have a 12m soul, and have had a couple of unrecoverable swims in, so I bought an 11m Gong strutless for 7-10 knot days to gain more confidence and better ‘keep it in the air’ skills, although if you drop it, at least you can wait for a small gust, and have a chance of getting it back up rather than swimming in. In light wind with the Soul, I have hooked the chicken loop around the mast and hooked on to the de power line, swum to the soul, and sorted out the lines so that I could attempt relaunch, but it can be sketchy at times. I’ve only had one session on the Gong, but it stayed in the air when Boxers and other strutted kites dropped due to the wind dropping down to 4-5 knots, and was delightful to foil with in the 7-8 knots we had. I put the Gong in the water doing a downloop, but reverse launch was easy. Clouds or UFO’s might be a little lighter but you pay more for them. As long as there’s around 4 knots of apparent wind, the strutless will ‘luff’ or flutter if they start to overfly overhead and the drag sends them back into the window a little rather than flying them downwards upwind behind you (Hindenburg). The kite just sat at 12 o’clock with very little input. I was happy to go out in very light conditions whereas I probably would not have done so with the Soul on that day.

I learnt about the 4 knots of apparent when I started walking in, with the only kite left flying in the lull, and I didn’t keep looping or flying it, and it also dropped as my walking speed downwind increased :lol: I guess there are limits!


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