in what measure a low HF mast can help to progress learning?

[Archer77]

I feel with you....

My foiling Story:
Started in too light Wind....Got slammed soooooo hard.... Almost lost the Board. Got slammed even harder

Waited almost one year for the right starting CONDITIONS....
Put the Straps ALL THE WAY FRONT, AND THE FOIL ALL THE WAY BACK....

Talked to a Million people what to do.... Had people yelling me, WEIGHT TO THE FRONT!!!!! FOIL STRAIGHT!!! PUSH THE NOSE DOWN!!!!

After two hours could Ride Flvoth directions....

After 7 Days (already gybing) decided "Fu#@ it" this will never work for me....Sold everything.... Bought Something new -> one of the best Investments in Life....

Tried the new stuff-> immediately Had fun...


Short Mast is absolutely Important, If you have a stupid Foil....
Perfect conditiones are Important!
If Bad conditiones DO NOT GO....
You have to commit 100%...

thank you Simon!
I'm thinking to buy a beginner Gong kit... and after I can always sell it...
55 cm mast, 1500 sq cm and maybe also a big floating board... is what they suggest to beginners too

[dirk8037]

I think 1234567Simon really nailed, even it it sound kind of random and dramatic but I exactly hat the same experience.

Choose the right conditions. Get as flat water a possible. If nesessary drive 2-3 hours or make vacation trip to a place where you have not more than 10-20cm of chop and nice constant wind .
This is more important than any gear discussion.
For Winging DO NOT LEARN IN CHOP OR EVEN ROLLING SEA until you can getup and take off easily and save except you have that ballance from SUPing in that conditions.
For Kiting let it be 30 cm of chop beacause the Kite stabelizes more then the wing. Choose Kite size in a way that you can water start easily but yould not be able to ride or ride upwind with a TT.
You want a very suttle and controlable power supply. In opposite of winging the 12m, in 15kn was for me with 90kg way!!!!! too much. Which back than was the normaly recommendation.

Get a board that enables you to stand on it relaxed and without fokussing on sinking, having the nose up or what ever when moving forward at displacment speed.
Do not try to get riding while waterstarting.
Do not start over the backfoot with diping the kite deep into the window.
Leave it up at 11 to 1300. You want to get up on the board sort yourself, not forward as on the tt.

Straps or not, you want to have a fixpoint on your board for front foot and back foot. The plug bumps on my inflatible Wingboard are still gold for me. On the kite foil I have the holes and patterns of the pad. Go always from too forward backwards. Al the stories on crashing, shooting out of the water and needing a small mast to prevent that are comming from standing too far back and applying to much backfoot pressure.

>>Put the Straps ALL THE WAY FRONT, AND THE FOIL ALL THE WAY BACK....
Talked to a Million people what to do.... Had people yelling me, WEIGHT TO THE FRONT!!!!! FOIL STRAIGHT!!! PUSH THE NOSE DOWN!!!! <<

Go for videos on YouTube about Taxiing (i think it does not matter wheather kite or wing) Kite Collage eg was my enlightening video.
The crucial thing here is that your main aim must be to pick up speed and not take off by having the wight on the back BUT on the front. So do not give gas as you are used with kiting.
Especially as a kiter the Backfoot focus is the most contra productive thing in the learning.
You will see that even with not taking off you start to plan at very low speed. That is exactly your stating point. The flatter the water the better.

From there on you work your self backards by shifting wight slowly.
By that you should beginn to take off in little steps and you have the emergency break by pushing the nose back down fast always in reach.
If not then move by increments on 1 cm (it is an astounding sensible thing) with your back foot and when the stance is too wide also with the front foot.

!!! The Mastlength is here absolutely irrelevant if you are disciplined and take you time.
The 60 cm fight hight was quite scary once I started to take off really. But that will not be solved by a short mast, since you will have to switch if you want to go aut in 50cm chop. So also better get used to it in flat water.

You will see that within a session or 2 you will have the feeling for the up and down.
You will also agree that any water movement will put you severely back in this process since it is on more thing to be aware of.
Fall actively away from the board, never try to save it.

A lot of people struggle with sore thigh of the back leg in that phase. That is fine and will go away the more you progress and are able to adapt your stance, because you have more controlle and reflexes.
Up to that point you trade the balanced stance for savety by front foot orientation.
Its like with the IndoSurfer thing. You can start with the roller in the midle between you feet. This turnes out to be very unstable. Alternativly you can have the roller at the endblock right under your back foot. This would be more stable and you can focus on and leveling with the front foot. From there you start to work to having the roller in the middle.

Back then with a kite i had also highly discurraging 2 days after a course the vacation before. After the realising the Taxing thing it took me 1 day to be able to cross the lake. All in wheelchair speed but I was riding.
With Winging, I misjudged the Stance vs Foil position again and failed. But once that was clear it worked the same way.

Good luck

[leeuwen]

Short masts are only good for 1-2 sessions:
It helps a bit with being easier to move around and falls are less scary.
However, it will quickly start to hold you back: a shorter mast not only breaches quicker do to being shorter it is also more sensitive to angle/weight changes at the board.
The longer the mast the further away you are from the pivot point and therefore a longer mast becomes slower/more stable in its pitch movements.

As mentioned by others it is probably better to focus on riding with the board flat on the water and changing to a shorter mast doesn't do that much in that scenario.
I would also recommend having a look at the progression.me videos (costs a bit of money but way cheaper then lessons).
I found them really useful (even with the stupid basic stuff with how to carry the board and move it around) and I personally learned with the help of just these videos and no lessons.

[Archer77]

THANK YOU guys for the detailed and extended replies, are very appreciated

as one on my doubt was the most important point seams to be:

have flat water to taxi

and this connect also to the other post I have opened yesterday on the school lesson in 18kn with 7m kite and 50cm chop... wasted money

[Kamikuza]

No to the short mast, unless you have a shallow spot. And even then... a session or two is all it's good for.

Good conditions is consistent 15 knots, no breakers or rolling swell. Take a kite you could get up on your TT but not make ground upwind easily. 12m worked for me.

I guarantee you're still trying to get on the back foot like a TT, edged against the kite, and you want to pop right up onto the foil and are trying to force it up. Don't.

Water start gently, and aim to get the board on top of the water, then your goal is to ride around with the board on the water and let the board speed fly the foil aka The Taxi. That'll happen naturally and easily when you're comfortable riding the board.

You can cope with some chop while you're taxiing around, but breakers and swell at a beach won't be fun...

[FLandOBX]

[quote=Archer77 post_id=<a href="tel:1175232">1175232</a> time=<a href="tel:1661711200">1661711200</a> user_id=92292]
.........Would a 55 cm Gong mast (seams it's the shorter available from Gong) with a pretty big wing make a substantial difference?.....

Yes, especially with a larger, high volume board. Give yourself every advantage. The Lyft 200 is high aspect, low area. A low aspect, high area wing is much easier for learning. A mast of 60 cm or less will give you confidence as you progress, because you will have more control and your crashes will be less severe. And a larger, high volume board will allow you to comfortably ride the surface of the water before slowly rising up on the foil. You will have more control. Once you learn, you'll grow tired of the short mast and large board, but they will most definitely make the learning process easier, faster and more fun.

Lift classic is not high aspect. Lift does have a 200 HA wing, but the classic is fairly low aspect.
[/quote]

Agreed. My mistake. I was referring to the 200 HA (high aspect).

[Oldman_Dave]

The shorter the mast the more responsive the foil is to heel and toe pressure, the easier it is to "push around" and get it to do what you want. As you move to a longer mast the foil becomes less responsive.

My story: - started in a bad spot with a Spotz 2 foil - horrible 6 or 8 sessions with very little progress. Gave up defeated. Bought Axis gear a year later, including 45cm mast. Took it to a better spot. The 45cm mast was fantastic to learn on, drops off the foil were just like a bunny hop, and I could keep riding. Although people say short masts only good for 1-2 sessions, I stuck with the 45cm for about 6-8 sessions, as I was comfortable and progressing. The magic was that I learned really good height control right from the start (to not breach the foil in chop with a 45cm mast takes work). That automatic height control has followed me to this day, I'm comfortable on a 75cm mast where others need 85cm or 90cm to not breach.

For me 45cm was invaluable, and 60cm was a great next step.

[grigorib]

80cm is short enough already. It helps in shallow waters and it helps advance wave riders to copy surface of the wave rapidly
You have very good setup, keep practicing

Here are few tips
viewtopic.php?p=1031386#p1031386

[Flyboy]

Your gear is fine. You don't need a short mast. It's not clear to me what the size of your board is. I would say the most important thing is to have the right conditions: 14 - 15 knots, not too onshore, not too choppy/wavy. It's important to have the mast in the right position.

Kite foiling is difficult because everything depends on the initial water start. Water starting a foil is very different to water starting a TT or SB - you need to keep your weight forward as the foil starts to rise up. This is very counter-intuitive.

When I started I had a few sessions where it seemed entirely impossible, but then I was told mast further back, weight further forward and immediately I had my first short runs. Once you are up on the foil it's just a matter of time and practice until you start to improve and gradually feel more in control. Believe!

[AndersP]

A really slow foil with high lift like the Gong Rise with the rise stab will get you flying at much slower speed. The slow speed flying will give you more time to react and understand how to adjust ride height.

Ride comfortable in surface mode and then very slowly releasing front foot preasure until you get lift. When you get lift, imediately try to fly as low as possible until you touch down to surface mode and then repeat with longer and longer low height flights until you can control continous flying.

To me it was a game changer with a super slow speed foil.
The slow speed foil will give you more time to react and reprogram your muscle memore into the the new task of foiling. When my muscle memory finally got the hang of it, it didn't take many sessions before I could get back to my medium sized foil (gong curve m) and have more speed and fun.