Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

One strut kite: low end vs size

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
IWantToFly
Frequent Poster
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:43 pm
Kiting since: 2019
Weight: 77kg
Local Beach: Jones Beach, Sauvie Island, Floras Lake, the Gorge, OR coast, La Ventana
Favorite Beaches: La Ventana, the Gorge
Style: I wish
Gear: Groove Skate Pro 110cm
Kanaha Shapes 42” (106cm)
Triton T1 Monowing
Lift Classic 170
Litewave Wing 155, Kick-S 139
OR Mako 140
Duotone Whip 5’0”
Naish Pivot 6, 8, 10
Flysufer Soul 6m, 12m
Flysurfer Peak5 5m, Peak4 8m
Cloud 2.8, 3.7, 4.8, 6.2, 8
Pansh 7/11
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 115 times

Re: One strut kite: low end vs size

Postby IWantToFly » Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:22 pm

Nak wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:12 am
My favorite light wind foiling kite is currently the 11m UFO.
I tried the 11m UFO v2 this summer after coming back to the beach on my 12m Soul at a light-wind spot (Sauvie Island for those like Nak who know). It pulled like a truck. I don’t know exactly what the wind was as it was coming up just a little from my Soul session. The only problem I found was that it became over-powered very quickly. (I’m just an intermediate foiler and don’t typically try to hold down a lot of power - I like the smallest kite possible.) A couple others with 11m UFOs were already coming back in for 9s. It could not have been more than 11kts or 12kts and it was already way too much. So, I would agree it is great for ultra-light wind, but if the wind is not consistent and has some higher gusts it could be uncomfortable quickly.

Nak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:59 am
Kiting since: 2004
Weight: 182
Local Beach: Stevenson, WA; Rooster Rock, OR; Sauvie Island, OR; Kailua HI sort of...; Baja, MX; Ackerman Island, OR (I'm the only local kiter here...)
Favorite Beaches: Stevenson, WA; Kailua, HI; Baja; Isla de Coche; Rhodes, GR.
Style: Foil
Gear: Lift, Slingshot, Naish, Kanaha Shapes, Moses
Brand Affiliation: Lift
Location: Camas, Washington
Has thanked: 136 times
Been thanked: 121 times

Re: One strut kite: low end vs size

Postby Nak » Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:17 pm

IWantToFly wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:22 pm
Nak wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:12 am
My favorite light wind foiling kite is currently the 11m UFO.
I tried the 11m UFO v2 this summer after coming back to the beach on my 12m Soul at a light-wind spot (Sauvie Island for those like Nak who know). It pulled like a truck. I don’t know exactly what the wind was as it was coming up just a little from my Soul session. The only problem I found was that it became over-powered very quickly. (I’m just an intermediate foiler and don’t typically try to hold down a lot of power - I like the smallest kite possible.) A couple others with 11m UFOs were already coming back in for 9s. It could not have been more than 11kts or 12kts and it was already way too much. So, I would agree it is great for ultra-light wind, but if the wind is not consistent and has some higher gusts it could be uncomfortable quickly.
Good points and agreed. the 11 UFO is really for those days where the wind is light and going to stay light. Ozone race lines help a bit because the kite flies a little further forward in the window due to less drag; this definitely makes the 11 easier to handle as the wind picks up. (And helps a lot on the bottom of the wind range too.) Don't get me wrong, the 11m is still best at 11 mph and less. If it's 11 mph and increasing I switch to the 8m. What I like about the 11m UFO in sub 10 mph winds is how light it is on the bar and quick for such a big kite. I find it's way more fun to fly than other kites below 10 mph which is why it's my favorite. It makes light wind foiling fun as opposed to just being able to get you out. Just my opinion.

Nak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:59 am
Kiting since: 2004
Weight: 182
Local Beach: Stevenson, WA; Rooster Rock, OR; Sauvie Island, OR; Kailua HI sort of...; Baja, MX; Ackerman Island, OR (I'm the only local kiter here...)
Favorite Beaches: Stevenson, WA; Kailua, HI; Baja; Isla de Coche; Rhodes, GR.
Style: Foil
Gear: Lift, Slingshot, Naish, Kanaha Shapes, Moses
Brand Affiliation: Lift
Location: Camas, Washington
Has thanked: 136 times
Been thanked: 121 times

Re: One strut kite: low end vs size

Postby Nak » Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:37 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:32 pm
@70 kg the ability for the kite to hang, is very important.
It is mostly the overall weight of the LEI that matters, not how many struts or not.

Being 78 kg I can kitefoil with a 12 m2 LEI and 30 meter lines from 7 knots, below I can keep it flying, but not get on foil.

Board size matters a lot IMO, but some disagree...
You need 1-2 knots more wind to start on a pocket board, than on a medium sized board.
The bigger the board, the earlier you can get up on foil, period.

It is not so easy though, as if TOO low wind, you might not be able to waterstart on a really big board anyways, not sufficient power to haul your ass out of the water.
Once up on the big board, you can get foiling in crazy low winds, so being able to stand on a big board in lulls, is a session saver often.
Where you with a pocketboard can get up standing on the board "sinkerstart", board fully submerged waistdeep, thats the advantage.
But from here, you need even more wind to get the board up to the surface, and free so you are foiling.

With a 9 m2 I could ride in 8½-9 knots (on 30 meter lines)

So yes you will gain with an 11 m2 being 70 kg, but not much I would say, still noticeable thats for sure.

Having a bigger board (you dont write what you have now) will help a lot more, as you have a really small foilwing.
And if you have an okay big board, a bigger foilwing will help a lot.



To the other question, yes a lot of difference in wind power because of density differences in relation to height over sea (pressure) and air temperature.

As said before, dry or moist air not really any difference, the only one is the moist air is lighter than dry air, so has less power, opposite to what many believe :rollgrin:

An old chart I made:
8) Peter
Nice post! I'm curious, are you a pilot? That looks like a density altitude chart.

User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 12735
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 1007 times
Been thanked: 1187 times

Re: One strut kite: low end vs size

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:26 pm

Thanks, but not really, well it depends what a pilot is.

Have flown gliders and hanggliders for many years, and on a few occassions played around in aerobatic sport planes.

But I dont find anything with a motor fun for long :rollgrin:

Using the wind and waves is whats its all about :thumb:

8) Peter

Qiter
Medium Poster
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:17 pm
Gear: Mostly foil
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: One strut kite: low end vs size

Postby Qiter » Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:43 am

I agree with Peter here. I live in a light wind spot and have spend a lot of time dialing in the best lightwind gear for my riding style (I do not like foilkites).
I can foil on an 11m with 1100cm frontwing in 6-7 kn and "survive" lulls down to 5 kn for some time once I am up and going, I am 90kg.
(I have tested this a lot, there is a reliable windmeter right on the spot at kite height, so I am confident about these numbers)

Bottom line:
1- First and foremost, lightwind riding depends on skills. You need to practise it a lot to get proficient and it is frustrating in the beginning as it involves a lot of swimming..
2- Gear matters, but not as much as many would like to believe. Board size is important to get on foil, as mentioned by Peter.
3-For the kite, there is a sweetspot between size and speed. In light wind, a lot depends on apparent wind, i.e. the wind you generate when moving the kite. For me, 11m is the max I need, bigger gives me only a marginal advantage, as it is harder to hold it in the air (heavier) and is also slower (size impacts the speed negatively) and less fun. (This is for LEI, of course, the big foilkites can get you going at 5kn with the right skills). I am waiting to see if a bigger Aluula kite (13m?) with a fast shape will get me going earlier and still be fun.

So: Low end on a foil depends on the factors highlighted above, of which I believe 1 is the most important (if you stick to one type of kite, LEI vs Foilkites).

To answer your question: Yes, if you have a 9m, an 11m will get you going about 1-2 kn earlier.
These users thanked the author Qiter for the post:
vitaum (Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:32 pm)
Rating: 3.03%

azoele
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:00 am
Gear: Airush DNA 14
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 77 times

Re: One strut kite: low end vs size

Postby azoele » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:36 pm

Please take my comments with an extra grain of salt, as I'm rather heavy compared to OP.

I share only because earlier in my foiling path I though the best material for ULW was a Peak (because it is so difficult to make it fall) and a large fat foil with lots of low speed lift.

In time I reversed my view (and I began to agree with those offering differing opinions at the time): now when I decide want to go really light wind, nothing beats a big kite producing lots of apparent, and a very glidey foil with as little drag as possible (and no real need for ultra low speed lift).

The issue is this: in very light winds, it is not easy to get apparent to kick in and and have it strong enough to maintain direction (so transverse is easy, upwind is very tough).
And then, as soon as you need to change direction, either you're very good at roll tacking and do it race style at speed (not my case...) or you jibe, and that is both boring (as you lose speed) and thrilling (as you can slack lines, or crash the kite with the loop, or end up stopping because of foil drag and fall down from foil having the kite fall down too without apparent wind).

So, as glidey a foil I can manage (The Fluid L-s for me with Fluid 40 by GONG, soon with the new less draggy stabilizer), and as big a kite I can hold, because in ULW I'd rather need to trim when apparent wind kicks in than enduring the pain of constant kite zipping around to generate apparent and trying not to stall. Big kites truly kick apparent in and remain nice (in straight lines) in ultra light winds. Smaller kites may get you on foil, but riding will be more work than fun, and that is why I stopped to use my 10m Maverick in 7/8 knots.
Glidey foils with as little dragsas possible mean accelerating more (thus more apparent) and losing less speed during manouvers mean much higher leeway, and more relax/fun.

So for me, 6 knots (but 7 is better: real 6 knots is really mild wind) is (now) 17m Strutless by GONG, which gets overpowered quickly is true, but allows my 110Kg to jump on the foil and out of jibes easily, and also allows me proper upwind. You go fast, you can try jumps, and provided you are decisive enough with steering to avoit it hitting the water with kiteloops you'll never stop even in lulls.
Very nice for this was my Ultra 17m too.

Board size is basically not mattering even at my weight: newer higher a/r foils respond greatly to pumping, so looping the big kite around and pushing with the legs will eventually get me on foil even on my 108cm board.
Even if I feel the lift for just a fraction of a second, I only need to get vertical or so, and then pumping while moving the kite I will eventually get the foil to gain speed and lift me.
I see very light dudes around here in lighter winds I'd dare try making it with ridiculous pocket boards: besides ability, weight is an essential part of the equation. And they use a 11m kite at 50Kg with quite a few years of ULW scraping.

Last, but not least: my last outing (6-8 knots) on the 17m was with only 20m cables.
Sure I lost lots of useable window, but the faster kite allowed me to chain large loop after large loop even on the 17m to get on foil.

So, my recommendation to OP would be to jump directly to a slightly bigger kite.
At 70Kg if I remember correctly there's no need for a 17.
But on of our good riders goes out in 6 knots on a Ultra 14 at 72Kgs, and holds it until 12 knots or so.
And at 7 knots he has lots of fun already.

P.S.
The Contra 1s ('21 and '22) I see flown all the time from by my riding buddy, and he loves it. I can vouch for its low wind pull, but I never gelled with it.
My feeling is other kites have proved better suited for ultralight winds (in my hands at least), and also that Cabrinha fell prey of the nouvell vague dictating that "anything over 11m is not good for foiling".
I dissent strongly.
Lots of people foil with 14/17 pumps and 15->21m foil kites in very marginal winds.
11m is just the largest size one can charge ridiculous amounts of money for a kite behaving "acceptably" in the head of a user: larger kites are indeed sluggish, and the user really needs have clear that it's those limits (i.e. speed...) that make these kties suitable for scraping the last knot.
My 2c, of course.

P.P.S.
Or a 12m or 14m Aluula might do the trick... but those are almost 3k :roll:
, and those are kites that get the most out of apparent rather than offering easy "instant pull" like the contra.
The Gong strutless is a known name for this. The Maverick nerio (I own the 13m, but should have gone 15 in retrospective at my weight) is a very, but very nice kite for these conditions, as it is fast and it gets lots of power with speed.

vitaum
Rare Poster
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:38 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Weight: 70kg
Local Beach: São Paulo - Brazil
Style: freeride
Gear: cabrinha contra 9 and 11m 2021, sabfoil moses 590-330 with a naish hover 130 foil board
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: One strut kite: low end vs size

Postby vitaum » Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:18 pm

lightwind wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:44 pm
How low you go with your 9 right now? How low you want to be able to go? If you want to ride in the sub 9 knots winds I think you should skip LEI kites.
thanks man, riding foil kites is the next step, maybe in the future! For now I still prefer the safety and simplicity of the lei kites

vitaum
Rare Poster
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:38 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Weight: 70kg
Local Beach: São Paulo - Brazil
Style: freeride
Gear: cabrinha contra 9 and 11m 2021, sabfoil moses 590-330 with a naish hover 130 foil board
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: One strut kite: low end vs size

Postby vitaum » Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:24 pm

cglazier wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:17 pm
Your W590 wing is only 650 sq cm. You will get significantly better light wind capability with a front wing over 1000 sq cm.
:wink: CG
my friend convinced me to get the wing after my first foil (cabrinha double agent 2018) telling me that it has good low end but also high end.
But I agree with you, it is too small. Do you have any recomendation on the sabfoil/moses line that wouldn´t require me to buy the whole set up again (compatible at least with my fuselage).
Thanks!
Last edited by vitaum on Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vitaum
Rare Poster
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:38 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Weight: 70kg
Local Beach: São Paulo - Brazil
Style: freeride
Gear: cabrinha contra 9 and 11m 2021, sabfoil moses 590-330 with a naish hover 130 foil board
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: One strut kite: low end vs size

Postby vitaum » Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:29 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:32 pm
@70 kg the ability for the kite to hang, is very important.
It is mostly the overall weight of the LEI that matters, not how many struts or not.

Being 78 kg I can kitefoil with a 12 m2 LEI and 30 meter lines from 7 knots, below I can keep it flying, but not get on foil.

Board size matters a lot IMO, but some disagree...
You need 1-2 knots more wind to start on a pocket board, than on a medium sized board.
The bigger the board, the earlier you can get up on foil, period.

It is not so easy though, as if TOO low wind, you might not be able to waterstart on a really big board anyways, not sufficient power to haul your ass out of the water.
Once up on the big board, you can get foiling in crazy low winds, so being able to stand on a big board in lulls, is a session saver often.
Where you with a pocketboard can get up standing on the board "sinkerstart", board fully submerged waistdeep, thats the advantage.
But from here, you need even more wind to get the board up to the surface, and free so you are foiling.

With a 9 m2 I could ride in 8½-9 knots (on 30 meter lines)

So yes you will gain with an 11 m2 being 70 kg, but not much I would say, still noticeable thats for sure.

Having a bigger board (you dont write what you have now) will help a lot more, as you have a really small foilwing.
And if you have an okay big board, a bigger foilwing will help a lot.



To the other question, yes a lot of difference in wind power because of density differences in relation to height over sea (pressure) and air temperature.

As said before, dry or moist air not really any difference, the only one is the moist air is lighter than dry air, so has less power, opposite to what many believe :rollgrin:

An old chart I made:

Image

8) Peter
Thanks Peter! I ll definetely look for a bigger volume board. Mine is very low volume and medium sized (only 5L I guess, a Naish hover 130m).
What do you think about a 25L and 135cm? Still too small?

vitaum
Rare Poster
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:38 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Weight: 70kg
Local Beach: São Paulo - Brazil
Style: freeride
Gear: cabrinha contra 9 and 11m 2021, sabfoil moses 590-330 with a naish hover 130 foil board
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: One strut kite: low end vs size

Postby vitaum » Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:31 pm

Cab Driver wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:37 pm
vitaum wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:40 pm
for a 70kg rider (beginner/intermediate) with a moses w590, what is the sweet spot size for low end with an one strut kite?
I have a contra 9m one strut and been thinking about getting a 11m to ride in lower winds, do you guys think that I will benefit with this increase in size? Or the low end gain will be marginal?
Sorry for asking this here, I am trying to get a demo but it is really rare to have one here in Brazil near my place
Thanks!
Yes - Getting the Contra 1S 11m will make a difference. You can't go wrong with the Contra 1S. It's a great kite. Having a slightly larger front foil wing will also help your performance in even less wind. PM me if you need a contact in Brazil. Cabrinha have a large presence there. Take care and rip it up!
Thanks man! The local cabrinha dealer doesn´t have a 11m for me to demo, but it is fine, I think I am convinced and will order one!
I still have a cabrinha 13m on my quiver, how do you think it will compare to the 11m for foiling (for tt I am sure it will be better)? Sometimes it just feels too heavy...


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bitxopalo, evan, Leon van Bergen, mede and 194 guests