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Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

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faklord
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Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

Postby faklord » Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:34 am

Recently I saw tests had been performed to compare the performance of Moses/Sab masts:  https://youtu.be/fEtq2JNsp14  [Ref 1]

I wondered how my Gong masts would compare.

Its gone cold and windless….So some tests have been performed.

Full details of the Testing and Analysis can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cSz ... sp=sharing [Ref 2]

The following gives a brief summary of the findings:

The mast hardware I had to hand was:

a) Gong 85cm Carbon Pro
b) Gong 70cm Aluminium V2 + Baseplate (Note. This was a 75cm mast cut down to 70cm).


Comparison of Gong Carbon Pro with Aluminium V2
The Carbon mast was found to be much stiffer in bending than the Aluminium. Bending rigidity was 153% that of the Aluminium.
The Carbon mast was found to be less stiff in torsion. Torsional rigidity was 64% that of the Aluminium !

It is accepted that the test methods are not representative of real use but they do provide a quantitative method of comparing hardware.

Initially I was a bit surprised by the lower torsional rigidity of the carbon mast. 
However, maybe this is not so uncommon:
A review of the (eye wateringly expensive) Axis High modulus mast by ‘Wake Thief’ also noted that the torsional stiffness was less than that of its ‘poorer’ Aluminium relation. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV6O5vQep8Y [Ref 3]


Comparison of Gong masts with some other hardware.
The following chart compares the measured deflection values with those recorded in [Ref 1]
Deflection.jpg
In this chart, the lower the value the better. 
Superficially the performance of the ‘Gong Carbon 85’ doesn’t compare very favourably. 
However,  mast length plays a very significant part in the deflection. (Deflection being proportional to Length cubed) and the Gong Carbon mast was significantly longer than the others.
A repeat test on the carbon mast but applying the load (and measuring deflection) at the same distance from the baseplate as ‘Gong Alu 70’, achieved a  much better result.

For each mast, the length and deflection (and load) can be used to determine a ‘Rigidity’ value (derivation can be found in the linked document [Ref 2]).
This provides a fairer comparison as the effects of length are taken into account. 
Calculated rigidity values are compared below.
Rigidity.jpg

This time the higher the value the better. 
The performance of the ‘Gong Carbon 85’ now looks very good.

I’ll probably test a Gong Alu V2 85cm and Project Cedrus 90cm, which I have but not at my current location, at some later date.

It would be very interesting to see how the Gong HM masts compare but I doubt I’ll be getting my hands on one of those for some time!

I'm sure I've previously seen a list of mast performance for various different brands but cannot now find it. If anybody has any pointers?
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Re: Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:45 pm

A bit off topic maybe, but how does the Gong Carbon Monobloc compare?

Discontinued yes, but I dont know why, I would always prefer a monobloc over a mast + fuselage + connection and screws.

Am I the only one missing the Gong Monobloc?

8) Peter

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Re: Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

Postby faklord » Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:11 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:45 pm
A bit off topic maybe, but how does the Gong Carbon Monobloc compare?

Discontinued yes, but I dont know why, I would always prefer a monobloc over a mast + fuselage + connection and screws.

Am I the only one missing the Gong Monobloc?

8) Peter
I Can’t answer that. Haven’t got one.
I think there were a few monobloc failures at the step change in fuselage for front wing. Probably not in normal use. More likely heavyweight jumpers? Guess that’s why they were discontinued??

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Re: Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

Postby tegirinenashi » Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:45 pm

There are so many variables. For example, for aluminum masts what is the base plate collar tolerance? This is significant, because say 0.5 mm gap at 5 cm would be leveraged to 7 mm at 70 cm at pretty modest torque (compared to 25 kg/70cm in the aforementioned test). Therefore, it would be fair to compare aluminum masts rigidity when it is epoxied to the base. Same concerns for carbon masts, as some designs feature not only detached base plate, but an adapter to the fuselage.

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Re: Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

Postby jaros » Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:25 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:45 pm
A bit off topic maybe, but how does the Gong Carbon Monobloc compare?
Discontinued yes, but I dont know why, I would always prefer a monobloc over a mast + fuselage + connection and screws.
Am I the only one missing the Gong Monobloc?
8) Peter
I can not speak of the 85cm, but the 100cm monoblock (V2 version) was way to soft in torsion for my taste. I liked the idea and would also love to have a 85 monoblock if strong enough.
Jaros

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Re: Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

Postby omg » Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:13 pm

jaros wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:25 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:45 pm
A bit off topic maybe, but how does the Gong Carbon Monobloc compare?
Discontinued yes, but I dont know why, I would always prefer a monobloc over a mast + fuselage + connection and screws.
Am I the only one missing the Gong Monobloc?
8) Peter
I can not speak of the 85cm, but the 100cm monoblock (V2 version) was way to soft in torsion for my taste. I liked the idea and would also love to have a 85 monoblock if strong enough.
Jaros
yes, same here, 100cm (fuse integrated in to the mast) was really a noodle.

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Re: Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:17 pm

We are some having the 85 cm Monoblock, loving it and wish it would continue

Apparently the 100 was no good?

8) Peter

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Re: Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

Postby mede » Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:36 am

I have the 100 monobloc.
No torsion issues for me (but then I am not super heavy).

Had to sand it though to reduce drag (square fuselage is probably not ideal in this sense).

Like it fine in general. Was able to crack 30 knts with the Fluid S T and kite Stab recently with this mast, so good enough for my current skills 😅

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Re: Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

Postby faklord » Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:03 pm

tegirinenashi wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:45 pm
There are so many variables. For example, for aluminum masts what is the base plate collar tolerance? This is significant, because say 0.5 mm gap at 5 cm would be leveraged to 7 mm at 70 cm at pretty modest torque (compared to 25 kg/70cm in the aforementioned test). Therefore, it would be fair to compare aluminum masts rigidity when it is epoxied to the base. Same concerns for carbon masts, as some designs feature not only detached base plate, but an adapter to the fuselage.
In this case the mast was a snug fit into the collar. Required a firm push to engage and no visible gap/play.
Agree that a sloppy fit will affect results but I’d say if that is how it is going to be used, that is how it should be tested?
Same applies if fuse adapter is fitted. Apply loads to end of adapter and include this in the ‘mast length’ to calculate a stiffness value.

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Re: Gong Mast rigidity: Carbon pro v Alu V2 v Others

Postby consumer » Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:55 pm

Thank you for putting this together Faklord!

edited because I see you did mention the wakethief review. (Thank you)

I wonder if torsion / twist of the foil is more noticeable and less desirable than mast bending. For example, I can probably adjust how I lean to compensate for any changes in bending, but adjusting for torsion is harder since I’d have to apply a twist motion to my board.

Also do we have any theories about what loads the foil typically sees when riding? In other words, any idea if the deflection and loads here are actually experienced ? I wonder if the torsional loads are more common than those shown for bending - again theorizing that torsion is more of a problem.


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