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Long mast - is it a con?

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Slappysan
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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Slappysan » Thu Nov 23, 2023 9:52 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 8:19 pm
Lastly, saying you can ride easier in the fun small waves close to shore with a shorter mast, are plain and simply wrong.
As unless you are a total beginner, you dont get off the foil when foiling - thus you can ride in just as shallow water with a 50 cm mast as with a 120 cm mast.
Except for the fact that with a longer mast you are plowing your carbon wings in to sand/mud/rocks when you do it vs. having your board touch the water and then keep riding the wave.

It's also odd to hear you say "unless you are a total beginner", it makes me feel like you aren't surfing these waves at all and simply kiting through them. This comment was for people who want to surf waves not ride through them.

You also say you have a 85 for winging but say you hate 85 cm masts, so why do you not use a longer mast for winging?

And your concerns about breaching a tip with a shorter mast aren't really a factor with a lot of the modern wings, riding tips out is a lot of fun!

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:20 pm

Sorry slappysan, I have no idea what you are talking about?

I think I explained it pretty clear?

Having a longer mast you ride higher, so you dont "plow" more through mud or sand.

Arent surfing the waves?
There is IMO no difference as long as the foil is the same depth under water (which it is, according to above)

I explained pretty clearly, that for winging the 85 is a needed/chosen short compromise for me, as otherwise I can not get out and start in onshore, which is easy with a kite, but a PITA with a wing :rollgrin:

Riding with tips out and being fun is maybe because you are at a lot higher level than me, might be true....
I just know I sometimes breach when going down the most perfect steep waves because of the 85 cm only, bugger :x

8) Peter

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Slappysan » Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:42 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:20 pm
Having a longer mast you ride higher, so you dont "plow" more through mud or sand.
You must ride higher to avoid a bottom strike, and when surfing a wave without kite power it's very easy to let the foil go too deep. With a 75 cm mast you can safely surf in 76 cm of water without fear of striking the bottom and easily recover touchdowns of the board on the water.
Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:20 pm
Arent surfing the waves?
There is IMO no difference as long as the foil is the same depth under water (which it is, according to above)
Maintaining a constant foil depth is fairly simple when you ride under kite power, maintaining constant foil depth when riding unpowered on the face of a breaking wave is quite challenging and when you fail you tend to end up with the board touching down on the water (or in your case your foil striking the bottom)

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Trent hink » Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:30 pm

I really liked my 72 cm Moses mast, but I just broke it.

Sure, you have to watch your speed over large chop, but it's not much different than the way you have to watch your speed riding out with strapless surfboard.

I have on-hand a 111 ghost whisperer mast and a newer 92 cm "tortionally stiffer" surf/wing mast.

Ignoring the fact that control is much more direct with a shorter mast, the 111 and reinforced model 92 both weigh 5-1/2 pounds.

My broken 72 weighed 3 pounds, and it was usually short enough to easily start it somewhere in between the shore and the first sandbar at preferred riding spot...

I suppose it's mostly a matter of taste, but any kiter who likes jumping and has messed around with changing the length of their flying lines knows exactly the conundrum I expect to soon face; changing things throws your timing way off, and it will no doubt take time to adjust.

I hydrofoil strapless and rarely try to jump, but some of you with experience might understand this analogy.

And in the small waves we get here, which really are usually just big chop, I really liked that 72...
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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby rnelias » Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:49 pm

Something that intrigues me on hydrofoil is how our body knows exactly at what height we must fly over the water.

We have a sense called proprioception that probably explains this magic

By definition:

Proprioception or kinesthesia, is the sense that lets us perceive the location, movement, and action of parts of the body. It encompasses a complex of sensations, including perception of joint position and movement, muscle force, and effort

In other words: pure magic :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Flyboy » Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:53 pm

rnelias wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:49 pm
Something that intrigues me on hydrofoil is how our body knows exactly at what height we must fly over the water.

We have a sense called proprioception that probably explains this magic

By definition:

Proprioception or kinesthesia, is the sense that lets us perceive the location, movement, and action of parts of the body. It encompasses a complex of sensations, including perception of joint position and movement, muscle force, and effort

In other words: pure magic :lol: :lol: :lol:
Yes - this seems to be true. Also, my understanding of where I am is thrown off if I look down at the water, or backwards, or sideways - the key is to look ahead.

There are two aspects to mast length: how high above the water you are ... and how deep under the water you are. If you're riding in shallow water, - or over a reef, or boulders - you could theoretically ride the foil high enough to avoid hitting the bottom, but that's like saying you could theoretically avoid breaching with a short mast by keeping the foil low enough to the water. The point is, you occasionally make mistakes and you don't want that mistake to lead to damaging the foil by hitting something - better to make the mistake of coming out of the water and breaching.

I don't think the thrill of foiling comes from being elevated above the water - higher isn't better - it comes primarily from the lack of drag & effortlessness of movement. That's what makes it "feel like flying". I have been using a 85cm mast for a few years now. I have developed an advanced sense of proprioception with this setup and very rarely breach. I am going to try my 100cm mast over the coming weeks in Cabarete. The irregularity of the reef there is definitely a potential hazard - especially at low tide. Also, if you fall in the shallower areas of the reef it can be impossible to water start without drifting to a deeper spot - and that drifting is generally in the impact zone for the waves. I can understand why surf foilers may choose to use a shorter mast.
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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Trent hink » Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:19 am

There's totally something to that, and I remember that early on in my learning to hydrofoil I had a natural tendency to look at the kite when I tried to gybe, and usually I stuffed it.

I started kiteboarding in 1998-1999, so I don't really need to look at the kite to know where it is.

With my progression in hydrofoiling, it was a total breakthrough when I decided to not look at the kite and just keep one eye looking forward to judge the position of my foil in the water.

After a few years, it seems I don't even have to do that anymore with my preferred set-up, and somehow I just know where I am.

That's yet another reason why I'm a bit leary about changing the length of my mast...

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby vakiter » Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:29 am

I feel like the lift decreases when you get close to surface . It might be in my head .

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Trent hink » Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:52 am

I always felt like I got better drive off the wave if I kept the wing up high and where the action is.

But like I said, we rarely get "real" waves at my local spot, and my real breakthrough in riding these types of "waves" was a simple matter of learning to enter with adequate speed.

It's usually knee to chest high wind-chop generated shorebreak, at best...

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Flyboy » Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:34 am

Trent hink wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:19 am
After a few years, it seems I don't even have to do that anymore with my preferred set-up, and somehow I just know where I am.
I think with enough experience you can "feel" where your foil is in the water - you make constant, tiny, subconscious adjustments to keep the foil where you want it.


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