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Long mast - is it a con?

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:24 am

Flyboy wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:34 am
Trent hink wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:19 am
After a few years, it seems I don't even have to do that anymore with my preferred set-up, and somehow I just know where I am.
I think with enough experience you can "feel" where your foil is in the water - you make constant, tiny, subconscious adjustments to keep the foil where you want it.

Hmmm, I dont think so :roll:
We need to have some reference IMO, it is just that we dont think about it anymore, and can look whereever we want now :rollgrin:

Might just be me, having kitefoiled more than 10 years now - and after some years I thought the same.
But two things let me say ýou cant feel how high you ride (in normal conditions which is some chop and a bit of waves too maybe)

If I close my eyes, I can not ride "indefinitely" even if going straight - have tried it a couple of times.
Also, when I ride after dusk when getting REALLY dark, I seem to breach a lot more (eyes open) - kite is no problem as it is on your backbone yes, and also more contrast on the sky, but when it gets dark and impossible to see the water surface and "height" nor horizon nor the waves, I crash more often at least when jibing or riding on the small wave surfaces.

Meaning I can not feel the foil height in the water, if I did not have my "sight" :wink:

I agree you dont need much "sighting" nor to look in a particular direction, but I really doubt one can feel how high/low your foil is in normal choppy conditions.

Never ride in totally flat water, so have no idea if different in this respect?

8) Peter
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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby rnelias » Sun Nov 26, 2023 2:25 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:24 am
Flyboy wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:34 am
Trent hink wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:19 am
After a few years, it seems I don't even have to do that anymore with my preferred set-up, and somehow I just know where I am.
I think with enough experience you can "feel" where your foil is in the water - you make constant, tiny, subconscious adjustments to keep the foil where you want it.

Hmmm, I dont think so :roll:
We need to have some reference IMO, it is just that we dont think about it anymore, and can look whereever we want now :rollgrin:
but Peter, when you say "reference", your body is finding a way to keep you riding subconsciously using a feeling (proprioception?!).

I don't know exactly if proprioception is what makes hydrofoiling possible, but it seems a good guess.

It's the integration of other sensors we have to have a perception of the world surrounding us

what makes possible to close our eyes and know the position of our hands and fingers in space or what makes a person, that has lost a limb, still feel that limb.

My guess is that we develop this sense for hydrofoiling in the learning process and keep training (tuning) our sensors each session. Like we did in the past to learn how to ride bikes.

What I find really interesting is that our body defines a standard flying height, and I presume it's almost an average that everybody tends to follow based in what I see in photos (and stickers glued on masts too :lol:)

If we need to fly higher or lower, it will require more attention because we'll need to integrate more information to make it possible. We don't have it well trained since it's not our average riding situation. Our body doesn't have enough data to make the subconsious corrections. We must switch from auto-pilot to manual temporarily :lol:

We know when the board touches the water. It makes a typical sound and bump feel that tells to our body that we're flying too low. We also know when the plane is about to breach in the maximum heigh since it'll start to loose lift and shake and these limits don't rely only in our vision system. We just know :thumb:
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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Flyboy » Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:30 pm

Yes, I'm sure ALL of our senses are involved in controlling the foil, however, the "feel" we develop over time is a very important factor. It continues to improve over time, so after 3 years of foiling I was able to regulate the foil competently, but was still somewhat shaky in big chop/waves. Now I may go for an hour in fairly extreme conditions without falling once. My eyesight hasn't improved, but my feel for the foil has.

I'm using an 85cm mast.There are times when I have to focus on forcing the foil back down - something that would be less necessary with a longer mast - but I can sense when I'm getting close to breaching & correct. I am assuming, with a 72cm mast, you just have to be more vigilant about controlling height with regard to breaching ... but less vigilant about hitting the bottom.

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Nov 26, 2023 5:02 pm

I know what you mean - our body gets better and better at using all senses without thinking, so it "seems" we can feel ride height.

I dont think this is correct though.

I think we get so good at foiling, that we only need small glimpses of references, and THEN we can ride at a stable height.
Opposed to when learning, where we needed all possible references (like looking at the horizon, like seeing a wave or chop coming, or hearing differences in speed and sound, feeling the difference in line load etc)

Later we dont think about it, and it feels like we can feel our ride height.

I dont think we can.
Yes of course if we ride with our eyes closed, where we CANT feel the height, one could say, myself included, it is because we change our "sensing system" too much.
True I must admit, so it does not prove one or the other :roll:

Regarding flying height to avoid hitting the ground - well, one example:
When I ride ashore I foil extremely high, on the verge to breaching, so I can jump off the board in one feet of water or less.
I can do this equally well no matter if a short mast or long mast :thumb:

So no, if you foil over the sandbanks, I dont really think you hit the bottom easier using a long mast, as you, just like when entering ashore, foil deliberately higher with the longer mast over the shallows.
Eventhough if rough and not shallow one might ride foil lower to avoid breaching indeed.

Yes of course, if you make a mistake and go down in the shallows, you have to go a tad further out to start with a longer mast - but if this means you have to drag 30 meters out instead of 25 meter, for the extra 20-25 cm mast - does this really matter?
Not for me, sooo small difference compared to the gains.

8) Peter

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Wolf of Ainsdale » Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:42 pm

What are the gains peter?

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:43 pm

rnelias wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:49 pm
Something that intrigues me on hydrofoil is how our body knows exactly at what height we must fly over the water.

We have a sense called proprioception that probably explains this magic

By definition:

Proprioception or kinesthesia, is the sense that lets us perceive the location, movement, and action of parts of the body. It encompasses a complex of sensations, including perception of joint position and movement, muscle force, and effort

In other words: pure magic :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thanks, that’s an interesting subconscious feedback control system we have.

Built in magic :smile:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:49 pm

Wolf of Ainsdale wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:42 pm
What are the gains peter?

Much more freedom to carve tight, and better in chop :thumb:

8) Peter

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Wolf of Ainsdale » Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:44 pm

Cheers pal

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Trent hink » Sun Nov 26, 2023 9:12 pm

I'm sure I'm somehow judging my ride hight, so I think Peter is right.

The difference between learning and experienced is that it all becomes subconscious. I no longer have to look at the water to know where I am, but i suppose my mind is subconsciously collecting and processing tons of information without me actually being aware of it.

I tried the 92 cm mast today, and it was not nearly as much as a struggle as I thought it might be.

After maybe 20-30 minutes in flat water I was comfortable and riding high without much thought about it.

I'm still not crazy about the extra weight and it's a bit tougher to fit the assembled hydrofoil into my hatchback, but otherwise no complaints, and adjusting seems way easier than adjusting to jump timing when you change line lengths.

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Re: Long mast - is it a con?

Postby Oldman_Dave » Sun Nov 26, 2023 9:58 pm

One thing about foiling that I've learned over the past few years is that everyone has their preference, and they're wildly different from one rider to the next. Which makes threads like this interesting because everyone gives their earnest opinion but in reality Wolf just has to beg borrow or steal a ride on a longer mast and see for himself.

Personally it's 75cm all the way. I've ridden everything from 45cm to 105cm and for me 75cm is perfect. Occasionally if I'm in super lumpy ocean in higher winds I might miss some extra mast, fighting to keep speed down and water over the foil. But in those circumstances I'd be struggling anyway. In return the other 95% of the time the shorter mast translates as more direct and responsive feeling, and a slightly lighter rig.
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