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Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

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bragnouff
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Re: Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

Postby bragnouff » Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:44 pm

ronnie wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:15 am

This is the first iteration XXLW in 2020.
I honestly don't think this is the Spitfire XXLW, the wings look a bit more elongated than on the production model. And of course you wouldn't expect someone constantly doing R&D to ride production models.
But anyway, XXLW works for wing. Not the easiest foil to complete tacks, but once you can nail them without mucking around, adapting to the spitfire is no big deal.

In terms of weight, the front and back wings of the XXLW add up to 2.4kgs. In comparison, a GoFoil NL190 (about 1400cm2) is just 1kg, and 240g for the tail. When it's at the end of a mast, you do feel that weight difference!
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Re: Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

Postby ronnie » Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:14 am

bragnouff wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:44 pm
ronnie wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:15 am

This is the first iteration XXLW in 2020.
I honestly don't think this is the Spitfire XXLW, the wings look a bit more elongated than on the production model. And of course you wouldn't expect someone constantly doing R&D to ride production models.
But anyway, XXLW works for wing. Not the easiest foil to complete tacks, but once you can nail them without mucking around, adapting to the spitfire is no big deal.

In terms of weight, the front and back wings of the XXLW add up to 2.4kgs. In comparison, a GoFoil NL190 (about 1400cm2) is just 1kg, and 240g for the tail. When it's at the end of a mast, you do feel that weight difference!
Nicolas was experimenting with this alternative front wing back in 2018, so he might have been using that?


As you say - either way - it works. This is the standard XXLW 1300 cm2.


The first Spitfire was released in 2016 and is still pretty much the only example of a canard that works well. I was expecting more development - normal foils have progressed a lot since 2016. Maybe Nicolas is still the only person who understands how he made it work well?

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Re: Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

Postby Fatso » Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:31 am

bragnouff wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:44 pm
ronnie wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:15 am

This is the first iteration XXLW in 2020.
I honestly don't think this is the Spitfire XXLW, the wings look a bit more elongated than on the production model. And of course you wouldn't expect someone constantly doing R&D to ride production models.
But anyway, XXLW works for wing. Not the easiest foil to complete tacks, but once you can nail them without mucking around, adapting to the spitfire is no big deal.

In terms of weight, the front and back wings of the XXLW add up to 2.4kgs. In comparison, a GoFoil NL190 (about 1400cm2) is just 1kg, and 240g for the tail. When it's at the end of a mast, you do feel that weight difference!
Yup, that G10 weight was/is the issue. I think he did some carbon prototypes as I have seen one for sale on Leboncoin but was snatched fast... As yo why it didn't go to production... Maybe when it's lighter the foil works so differently that the angles/shape needed to be reworked?

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Re: Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

Postby ronnie » Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:22 pm

[/quote]
I honestly don't think this is the Spitfire XXLW, the wings look a bit more elongated than on the production model. And of course you wouldn't expect someone constantly doing R&D to ride production models.
But anyway, XXLW works for wing. Not the easiest foil to complete tacks, but once you can nail them without mucking around, adapting to the spitfire is no big deal.

In terms of weight, the front and back wings of the XXLW add up to 2.4kgs. In comparison, a GoFoil NL190 (about 1400cm2) is just 1kg, and 240g for the tail. When it's at the end of a mast, you do feel that weight difference!
[/quote]

Yup, that G10 weight was/is the issue. I think he did some carbon prototypes as I have seen one for sale on Leboncoin but was snatched fast... As yo why it didn't go to production... Maybe when it's lighter the foil works so differently that the angles/shape needed to be reworked?
[/quote]

It seems likely that it could be updated by making higher aspect, lighter wings. Gunnar (when he tested it) said it was fast and comfortable strapless at speed and he would like to see a race version of it.


It doesn't seem to pump as well as conventional foils. My guess is that part of that might be down to how the two wings work at different angles of attack. I think the 2 wings might trade % of the total lift at different angles of attack. Maybe that could work better if the front wing was lower than the rear? but I have no idea that it would.
Because we are now seeing people using mono foils and skill levels are higher, it might also allow for shortening the fuselage? - which might help the pumping?

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if it can be improved from the original basic 2016 design.

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Re: Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

Postby lederhosen » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:45 am

Zeeko replied to my inquiry about spitfire development: there are no news right now but their target is a spitfire that works on their current fuselage.

Whether the new wings will be made of carbon is not mentioned, but all their recent wings are carbon. Their recent fuselage also fits a carbon mast and a ton of wings of all sizes. So a lighter spitfire may be on the horizon.

If the weight will change much for the smaller two sizes is questionable since those wings a pretty small and thin. The big xxlw would probably benefit the most from a carbon makeover.

If they do bring out a new version they might also bring out new wings shapes. A more streched out wingset in between xlw and xxlw would great for light wind kite foil.
Last edited by lederhosen on Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

Postby ronnie » Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:47 am

The original spitfire fuselage is 62cm. Zeeko now have a 65cm Double Agent fuselage. The Double Agent name seems to originate from a 75cm Amplifier fuselage which could mount the mast in a more rearward position for windfoiling. The 65cm fuselage doesn't have the option of two mast positions on the fuselage.
The Amplifier mast/fuselage connection is a stronger way to connect the fuselage to the mast for wider/larger wings. It is also symmetrical, so the fuselage can be mounted either way. Zeeko owners of the 65cm fuselage would just need to buy 2 of the new Spitfire wings. I don't know if the 75cm fuselage would work with the new Spitfire wings.
Image
This should mean that the Spitfire could use the carbon mast and new wings - with the angle of the front wing being adjustable. The larger wing also has the middle of the 3 off M8 bolts offset for more rigidity to the fuselage. I think the angle of the smaller wing relative to the larger wing on the Spitfire is very precise though, so it may not suit altering the pitch of the smaller wing.
The original Spitfire front wings might be able to be used on the Amplifier fuselage with suitable spacers - because the inline bolt pitch is also included on the Double Agent fuselages but the old front wing wouldn't fit because the new fuselage uses M8 bolts. The Spitfire fuselage uses M6 bolts for the wings.
Last edited by ronnie on Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

Postby lederhosen » Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:12 am

ronnie wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:47 am
The Amplifier mast/fuselage connection is a stronger way to connect the fuselage to the mast for wider/larger wings. It is also symmetrical, so the fuselage can be mounted either way. Zeeko owners of the 65cm fuselage would just need to buy 2 Spitfire wings.
Yes! The stronger connection could mean Canard Wing foils are coming. A wing foil that does not jump at you when you fall could be a selling point for beginners.

Do you know if spitfire alu masts still fit the amplifier fuselage?

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Re: Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

Postby ronnie » Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:24 am

lederhosen wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:12 am
ronnie wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:47 am
The Amplifier mast/fuselage connection is a stronger way to connect the fuselage to the mast for wider/larger wings. It is also symmetrical, so the fuselage can be mounted either way. Zeeko owners of the 65cm fuselage would just need to buy 2 Spitfire wings.
Yes! The stronger connection could mean Canard Wing foils are coming. A wing foil that does not jump at you when you fall could be a selling point for beginners.

Do you know if spitfire alu masts still fit the amplifier fuselage?
Yes - the masts are all compatible. The adaptor is symmetrical which means all the masts will work.
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Re: Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:21 pm

lederhosen wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:12 am
Snip...

A wing foil that does not jump at you when you fall could be a selling point for beginners.

Snip...

What precisely do you mean with this?

8) Peter

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Re: Zeeko spitfire and Canards in general

Postby lederhosen » Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:46 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:21 pm
lederhosen wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:12 am
Snip...

A wing foil that does not jump at you when you fall could be a selling point for beginners.

Snip...

What precisely do you mean with this?

8) Peter
The spitfire has little tendency to shoot out of the water when you fall. That could be because no stabilizer torques it up.


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