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Foil wings are like wines...

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rnelias
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Foil wings are like wines...

Postby rnelias » Sat Jan 06, 2024 1:40 am

Wing science is kind of "black magic" and there's no closed formula to perfect (most efficient) wing yet. Even for airplanes, there's a lot of experimentation in wing design besides a ton of CFD studies.

Most companies do a lot of trial and error tests and uses "ad-hoc" design from experienced riders to launch new wings every month and the market is already flooded with a huge range of wings

What intrigues me is that side-by-side, considering wings with closed specs, I can't say what makes a modest priced wing to the super expensive ones (ok, I may guess by the brand :lol: ). In fact, by riding both wings, in a blind test, I'm almost sure I can't say which one is the most expensive. Which makes me think that, for my freeriding level, wings are like wines :P

I'm sure that a bunch of folks that like wines is not able to guess a 50 and 200 usd bottle of wine by simply tasting :naughty:

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vakiter
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Re: Foil wings are like wines...

Postby vakiter » Sat Jan 06, 2024 2:16 am

Well I think you’re probably right. But I rode a liquid force next to a Moses . And the slickness and refinement are obvious.

Still like the lf impulse for Tiny bay waves I ride since it’s so slow and stable.

I kind of like em all
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ice (Sat Jan 06, 2024 2:26 am)
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PugetSoundKiter
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Re: Foil wings are like wines...

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Sat Jan 06, 2024 2:28 am

Performance is a physical construct.

Price is a social construct.

Sometimes correlates, sometimes not.

:hut:
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rnelias (Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:22 am)
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grigorib
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Re: Foil wings are like wines...

Postby grigorib » Sat Jan 06, 2024 2:55 am

Damn, is it wintertime already that moved us into philosophical questions?

let me pour some nostalgia and/or “please never again” into this fire…

Remember how after bunch of relatively easy shovel-shaped wings they mostly disappeared and only race wings were left?

Remember non-standard mast plate 5.5x3.5” hole spacing?

Remember how 633 made it so easy for new boilers to ride?

Remember pointy spear-nosed fuselages?

Remember having to have a separate fuselage for different wings?

Remember one piece lower planes, impossible to be reasonably packed for airline travel?

Remember “carbon” foils made of glass with thin top layer of carbon?

Remember “carbon” foils made of shredded carbon?

Remember wings that would separate lower/upper half after a while?

Remember stabilizers with winglets pointing down that would get destroyed on rocks?

Remember aluminum masts, so thin they would bend?

Remember titanium assembly bolts (for heavy as hell aluminum foil sets) which would snap easily?

Remember foils that took a mallet to be assembled/disassembled?

Remember foils with stabilizers flying/pushing up instead of flying/pushing down?

Remember watching strapless foiling and wondering “how in the world”?

Remember getting on a race wing and having to watch out way ahead because stopping from 30+ mph is not an instant option?

Remember getting stuck in one strap almost twisting an ankle?

Remember seeing 3’6” board and thinking “oh, it’s so tiny”?

Remember riding a large thick wing and feeling able to just almost stop in jibes?

Remember foil sets and boards which used imperial bolt sizes?

Remember getting a new wing that would feel a bit weird first and then thinking “what the hell is that thing” when mounting the old one after a while?

Remember getting that new wing and it won’t be that much better than the old one?

Remember your skills progressing along with gear improvements coming out so you’d wonder “is it me or is it that new gear”?

Remember all the shimming that was necessary to be able to stand on the board in the “right place” even though you already rode strapless?

Remember how tracks would have been moved forward/backward and always a bit too much on that new version of a your board?

Remember waiting for the Micro?

Remembering mast/fuselage adapters coming out?

Remember overbuilt 5/16” stabilizer mount bolts?

Remember not being able to take apart aluminum foil set after riding salt water and letting it sit assembled for a while?
Last edited by grigorib on Tue Jan 09, 2024 5:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

grigorib
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Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; Hood River; La Ventana; Ocean Park, PR; SPI; Tawas, MI
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Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses/RDB 70/90/101cm masts with 1200/860/800/730/600 kitefoil or 2200/1700/1400 wingfoil wings and 310/230/425 stabilizers, Naish MicroChip 80cm, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 100, MBS Comp 95x

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Re: Foil wings are like wines...

Postby grigorib » Sat Jan 06, 2024 3:31 am

As of wing designs - it’ll settle down after “COVID starvation” and following variety explosion. It feels that along the way we’re losing kitefoiling as a growing sport and it’s going to bury all those awesome kitefoil wings.
The efoil and wingfoil are taking over for now, with some windfoil reincarnation of windsurfing and prone foil surfing/pumping looking like a major fun given a good location.

In general though…
Heavier rider -> needs more wing area / thicker wings
Thicker wings -> better lowend + lower cruising speed
Higher aspect -> better glide, roll stability and pumping
Lower aspect -> better stall resistance + skatey feeling
Flatter stabilizer -> less yaw stability, better spinning on a wave
Shorter/longer fuselage -> selling gimmicks
More arrowhead LE shape -> better seaweed resistance

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Re: Foil wings are like wines...

Postby Jyoder » Sat Jan 06, 2024 3:59 am

Would be fun to do a blind foil test, have someone put a different foil wing on your board, keep it hidden under water, and ride it and try to tell what’s down there by the feel.

grigorib
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Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; Hood River; La Ventana; Ocean Park, PR; SPI; Tawas, MI
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Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses/RDB 70/90/101cm masts with 1200/860/800/730/600 kitefoil or 2200/1700/1400 wingfoil wings and 310/230/425 stabilizers, Naish MicroChip 80cm, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 100, MBS Comp 95x

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Re: Foil wings are like wines...

Postby grigorib » Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:17 am

Jyoder wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2024 3:59 am
Would be fun to do a blind foil test, have someone put a different foil wing on your board, keep it hidden under water, and ride it and try to tell what’s down there by the feel.
Let’s assume they’d be lucky and place each wing/mast to keep your favorite stance in place. You will know pretty fast:
- how soon it flies and how slow it can fly
- what is normal cruising speed
- roll and yaw stability
- instability near top end
- how heavy the set is to carry on land
- whether it floats on a side in water
- if mast recoils after sharp turns
- if it’s catching and not shedding seaweed too much

Then when you disassemble/pack it you’d know if more wings are compatible, if assembly design is reasonable.
After a while you’d know about longevity of gear.
If you want to get a set you’d know if it fits your price range - and for me I’d want a race wing, a lightwind wing, a freeride wing, a long mast and a short mast. Besides wingfoil set addition which must fit same mast attachment and same stabilizers.

I guess I’d encourage everyone try your buddy’s gear and experiment a lot to find your happy combination.

rnelias
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Re: Foil wings are like wines...

Postby rnelias » Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:27 am

grigorib wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2024 2:55 am
Damn, is it wintertime already that moved us into philosophical questions?
...
It's summer down here in the south hemisphere :jump:
Jyoder wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2024 3:59 am
Would be fun to do a blind foil test, have someone put a different foil wing on your board, keep it hidden under water, and ride it and try to tell what’s down there by the feel.
I have a Sabfoil W670 and a cheaper very similar wing made here in my country. I bet no one would tell the difference and the clone is 1/3 the price :naughty:

grigorib
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Posts: 4107
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Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; Hood River; La Ventana; Ocean Park, PR; SPI; Tawas, MI
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Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses/RDB 70/90/101cm masts with 1200/860/800/730/600 kitefoil or 2200/1700/1400 wingfoil wings and 310/230/425 stabilizers, Naish MicroChip 80cm, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 100, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot Turbine 9/13m, 20/23” Guardian/Sentinel bars, 1700 sq.cm wing/fuselage/stabilizer fitting Moses mast
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Re: Foil wings are like wines...

Postby grigorib » Sat Jan 06, 2024 6:04 am

rnelias wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:27 am
Jyoder wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2024 3:59 am
Would be fun to do a blind foil test, have someone put a different foil wing on your board, keep it hidden under water, and ride it and try to tell what’s down there by the feel.
I have a Sabfoil W670 and a cheaper very similar wing made here in my country. I bet no one would tell the difference and the clone is 1/3 the price :naughty:
I prefer RDB 1200cm² to 633/679 because it mounts onto same 647 fuselage and I don’t have to fly with an extra aluminum stick.
I switched from W695 to W800 and then to RDB 730cm² because of better lowend even with less wing area (thicker profile).
I sold W637 and kept RDB 600 cm² race wing because its slightly bigger area and much better price for that occasional “need for speed” urge.

But that “final destination” took time to come to and I still love Moses mast and kite fuselage and original 425 race stabilizer.

rnelias
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Cumbuco, CE
Barra da Tijuca, RJ
Praia da Bica, RJ
Style: freeride
Gear: Boxer 9m for foiling
Rebel SLS 8m or Crave HL 9m for boosting on twintip
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Re: Foil wings are like wines...

Postby rnelias » Sat Jan 06, 2024 7:49 pm

grigorib wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2024 6:04 am
But that “final destination” took time to come to and I still love Moses mast and kite fuselage and original 425 race stabilizer.
Carbon masts are easier to distinguish than wings. The lower quality have a perceptive wobble under load, however, I'm not able to compare good carbon masts with aluminum ones in a blind test. Ok... It would be easy by comparing the weights but, while riding, I simply can't tell the difference :(


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