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Does size matter?

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Wolf of Ainsdale
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Does size matter?

Postby Wolf of Ainsdale » Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:01 am

OK...contemplating getting a longer mast than my current 73cm north sonar on 1150 wing.

Should I go for the 85cm or the 95cm. Getting the carbon version so important decision as they are pricy.

I have gone from a 70cm to an 85cm mast before on my double agent when I was learning and the 85cm made a surprisingly big difference in stability.

Do you think an 85cm would be too close to my 73cm though to have both in my quiver?

Any thoughts appreciated.

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby rnelias » Wed Jan 24, 2024 12:26 pm

If you like to cruise fast in open sea and don't have problems with shallow water or sand banks, get the longest mast you can and you won't regret :thumb:

Yes! Size matter :lol:

leeuwen
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Re: Does size matter?

Postby leeuwen » Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:01 pm

It is a matter of taste:
Longer mast is more stable but others might call it dull.

I personally prefer long masts because it makes learning new tricks easier due to the stability but if you eg want to ride waves I can see that it might feel too slow.

rnelias
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Re: Does size matter?

Postby rnelias » Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:28 pm

some time ago I've made a survey about mast's lenght

viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2415714

I think this survey could be made again distinguising between kite and wing foiling since both have different preferences.

BTW, I've been using 95cm to kite and 85cm to wing :thumb:

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby Windigo1 » Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:39 pm

leeuwen wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:01 pm
It is a matter of taste:
Longer mast is more stable but others might call it dull.

I personally prefer long masts because it makes learning new tricks easier due to the stability but if you eg want to ride waves I can see that it might feel too slow.
Isn't it the other way around a longer mast is less stable that's why beginner learn on a shorter mast. A longer mast means the movement that you have to do to keep the foil stable is accentuated by the leverage effect. The advantage of a longer mast is that you can go faster in choppy water and breach. The shorter mast is more agile and stable that's why for wave foiling people use a shorter mast to surf and play on the waves. Racers use long mast to go fast through the chop at a steep angle and stay above the waves instead of playing on them. Of course this is all relative for some people a long mast is 85cm and for some it's 110cm.

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby nixmatters » Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:56 pm

my 2c here viewtopic.php?p=1213514
longer masts have more drag and flex.

leeuwen
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Re: Does size matter?

Postby leeuwen » Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:11 pm

Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:39 pm
leeuwen wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:01 pm
It is a matter of taste:
Longer mast is more stable but others might call it dull.
Isn't it the other way around a longer mast is less stable that's why beginner learn on a shorter mast. A longer mast means the movement that you have to do to keep the foil stable is accentuated by the leverage effect.
No, longer mast = more stable by far especially in pitch.
Basically you are further away from the pivot point so you have less impact on the angle of the foil.
Thinking about it with extremes makes it more clear: if you have a 100M mast moving it 10cm forward barely changes the pitch of the foil at the bottom.
I have both a 80cm and a 100cm mast and it is a huge difference with the 100cm being way less pitch sensitive.

Main reason to learn with short mast is because the crashes are not as bad
Falling with a 100cm mast is wayyy more scary and likely to end up with injuries than a 50 cm mast.

Windigo1
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Re: Does size matter?

Postby Windigo1 » Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:47 pm

leeuwen wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:11 pm
Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:39 pm
leeuwen wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:01 pm
It is a matter of taste:
Longer mast is more stable but others might call it dull.
Isn't it the other way around a longer mast is less stable that's why beginner learn on a shorter mast. A longer mast means the movement that you have to do to keep the foil stable is accentuated by the leverage effect.
No, longer mast = more stable by far especially in pitch.
Basically you are further away from the pivot point so you have less impact on the angle of the foil.
Thinking about it with extremes makes it more clear: if you have a 100M mast moving it 10cm forward barely changes the pitch of the foil at the bottom.
I have both a 80cm and a 100cm mast and it is a huge difference with the 100cm being way less pitch sensitive.

Main reason to learn with short mast is because the crashes are not as bad
Falling with a 100cm mast is wayyy more scary and likely to end up with injuries than a 50 cm mast.
I think it's the other way around. If the nose of the foil is going down and you need to move the mast 10 degrees backward to correct the pitch you will need a much longer movement with a 100m mast probably several meters to get 10 degrees on the fuselage versus only a few centimetres on a 50cm mast. This is why the leverage effect is so powerful you can do a very large movement at one end and this is translated in a smaller movement at the other end but with much more force.

rnelias
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Re: Does size matter?

Postby rnelias » Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:16 pm

Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:47 pm

I think it's the other way around. If the nose of the foil is going down and you need to move the mast 10 degrees backward to correct the pitch you will need a much longer movement with a 100m mast probably several meters to get 10 degrees on the fuselage versus only a few centimetres on a 50cm mast. This is why the leverage effect is so powerful you can do a very large movement at one end and this is translated in a smaller movement at the other end but with much more force.
You've just explained yourself why the 100m would be less sensitivity and, consequently, more stable -- larger movements to make small corrections. I'd go further... it's also more stable in the roll axis.

I think the misconception come from the depth you imagine the airplane traveling. We don't use longer masts to stay higher above the water but to make the plane travel deeper and avoid breaches.

People use short masts in waves since the foil is more nimble/agile. Small movements making a lot of response in tight turns :thumb:

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby Windigo1 » Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:32 pm

rnelias wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:16 pm
Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:47 pm

I think it's the other way around. If the nose of the foil is going down and you need to move the mast 10 degrees backward to correct the pitch you will need a much longer movement with a 100m mast probably several meters to get 10 degrees on the fuselage versus only a few centimetres on a 50cm mast. This is why the leverage effect is so powerful you can do a very large movement at one end and this is translated in a smaller movement at the other end but with much more force.
You've just explained yourself why the 100m would be less sensitivity and, consequently, more stable -- larger movements to make small corrections. I'd go further... it's also more stable in the roll axis.

I think the misconception come from the depth you imagine the airplane traveling. We don't use longer masts to stay higher above the water but to make the plane travel deeper and avoid breaches.

People use short masts in waves since the foil is more nimble/agile. Small movements making a lot of response in tight turns :thumb:
The larger movement means you have to move your body a lot more to achieve the same 10 degree correction all the small movement of the foil are amplified by the long mast isn't the definition of stable something that doesn't move a lot you haver to move your body a lot more to achieve the same correction that's the opposite of stable.


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