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Does size matter?

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leeuwen
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Re: Does size matter?

Postby leeuwen » Wed Jan 24, 2024 4:23 pm

Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:32 pm
haver to move your body a lot more to achieve the same correction that's the opposite of stable.
No it is MORE stable if you need to move more:
On a short mast just being off a little with your weight to the front will immediately nosedive the board which feels very twitchy.
On a long mast a little weight change to the front won’t have as much impact and it will feel slow/stable.

Having both the same foil setup with a 80cm and 100cm I can guarantee you the 80cm feels super twitchy compared to the 100cm mast.
eg doing things like sitting down is a lot harder on the 80cm mast because it’s so easy mis the exact balance point.
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Peter_Frank
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Re: Does size matter?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:00 pm

True :thumb:

So a really short mast (50-70 cm) only makes sense for the initial learning, if afraid of the water (crashes) as you dont get as high till you crash, and sometimes you can even recover again because of the supershort mast, so makes very first tries easy :D

For experienced it is personal likings, some find the shorter masts 75-85 cm more lively, others cant feel this.
Some prefer the medium masts 85-95 cm as allround for everything, turns fast and one can still carve tight with laydown without breaching.
And some prefer long masts 100-115 cm for being able to ride in megachoppy water or for jumping where you can heel more and pop max power.

8) Peter

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby Windigo1 » Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:49 pm

leeuwen wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 4:23 pm
Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:32 pm
haver to move your body a lot more to achieve the same correction that's the opposite of stable.
No it is MORE stable if you need to move more:
On a short mast just being off a little with your weight to the front will immediately nosedive the board which feels very twitchy.
On a long mast a little weight change to the front won’t have as much impact and it will feel slow/stable.

Having both the same foil setup with a 80cm and 100cm I can guarantee you the 80cm feels super twitchy compared to the 100cm mast.
eg doing things like sitting down is a lot harder on the 80cm mast because it’s so easy mis the exact balance point.
Ask you wife if she feels more stable on high heels versus flat shoes...

leeuwen
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Re: Does size matter?

Postby leeuwen » Wed Jan 24, 2024 7:20 pm

Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:49 pm
Ask you wife if she feels more stable on high heels versus flat shoes...
lol, why would I compare it to something totally unrelated and incomparable when I actually own a long and short mast?
Come back and have a chat when you actually used a long and short mast mast with the same foil and board...

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby Windigo1 » Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:35 pm

leeuwen wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 7:20 pm
Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:49 pm
Ask you wife if she feels more stable on high heels versus flat shoes...
lol, why would I compare it to something totally unrelated and incomparable when I actually own a long and short mast?
Come back and have a chat when you actually used a long and short mast mast with the same foil and board...
I have been foiling for 6 years I own 6 foils and an efoil that I built myself I have several mast from 60 to 100cm!

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby Oldman_Dave » Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:45 pm

Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:47 pm
leeuwen wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:11 pm
Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:39 pm


Isn't it the other way around a longer mast is less stable that's why beginner learn on a shorter mast. A longer mast means the movement that you have to do to keep the foil stable is accentuated by the leverage effect.
No, longer mast = more stable by far especially in pitch.
Basically you are further away from the pivot point so you have less impact on the angle of the foil.
Thinking about it with extremes makes it more clear: if you have a 100M mast moving it 10cm forward barely changes the pitch of the foil at the bottom.
I have both a 80cm and a 100cm mast and it is a huge difference with the 100cm being way less pitch sensitive.

Main reason to learn with short mast is because the crashes are not as bad
Falling with a 100cm mast is wayyy more scary and likely to end up with injuries than a 50 cm mast.
I think it's the other way around. If the nose of the foil is going down and you need to move the mast 10 degrees backward to correct the pitch you will need a much longer movement with a 100m mast probably several meters to get 10 degrees on the fuselage versus only a few centimetres on a 50cm mast. This is why the leverage effect is so powerful you can do a very large movement at one end and this is translated in a smaller movement at the other end but with much more force.
leeuwen is right here. Windigo wrong, sorry mate.

For me longer than 75cm feels too muted. I like the most responsive, alive setup I can get. Longer masts have no benefit except in very lumpy seas, but I manage these with 75cm..

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby Windigo1 » Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:49 pm

leeuwen wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 7:20 pm
Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:49 pm
Ask you wife if she feels more stable on high heels versus flat shoes...
lol, why would I compare it to something totally unrelated and incomparable when I actually own a long and short mast?
Come back and have a chat when you actually used a long and short mast mast with the same foil and board...
Why is it that every foiling guide on the web say a shorter mast is more stable?

Here's one from Mackite: Beginners: A shorter mast, around 60-70cm, is advisable for beginners. It offers more stability and is less intimidating because it keeps the rider close to the water's surface. https://www.mackiteboarding.com/news/wh ... ete-guide/

Here's one from Skroka The standard masts are the 80cm masts. However, if you have modified the three previous options, your foil will have lost a lot of stability. To compensate for this loss of stability you can opt for a shorter mast. This will give you more comfort and stability. The longer the mast, the more sensitive it is. https://srokacompany.com/en/2022/07/how ... anageable/

There are plenty more if you search

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby Trent hink » Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:55 pm

I loved my 72cm mast but recently broke it and switched to 92cm.

It is correct that the shorter mast allows smaller shifts in rider weight to have more effect, so I would agree that it is less stable.

With the switch to 92 cm, I can actually notice that it takes slightly more effort to maneuver, but it's not a huge difference, and not that big of a deal, even though i was initially worried about the change.

You can see my concerns here; viewtopic.php?t=2417075

It took me one or two very short sessions to get used to the difference.

Having said that, I would prefer the 72 for small waves, as it is just a very slight bit more responsive, has less inertia, and it's just a bit quicker to turn.

In the interest of full disclosure, I switched from an old 72 Moses mast to a new Sabfoil 92 Sabfoil "surf" mast. So it is possible I am not comparing apples to apples.

I have in my possession a Slingshot 111 Ghost Whisper mast, which is identical weight as my 92 Sabfoil surf mast, but obviously not as stiff.

I haven't tried it yet, mainly because it's a bit of screw around to fit a board with a mast that long in my hatchback without disassembly, but the weight difference between the 111 and the 92 surf compared to the old 72, is... at least a pound?... I forget exactly, but aside from performance characteristics that some might not even notice, the weight difference is significant.

In the end, it's all going to come down to rider preference...

And just for example, when I ride a twin-tip I prefer a very fast board and a smaller kite,so that I can use speed to my advantage

Personally... I hate going slow.

On the other hand, I know plenty of people who prefer a draggy twin-tip board and the biggest kite they can possibly hold down, so that they have the best opportunity to use all that lift to their advantage...

It's all good!

Find out what you like!

Borrow your friend's gear every chance you get!

Hell. I'm happy to lend my gear out to people I barely know.

Kitesurfers tend to be cool that way, or at least, most are cool in real life...

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby mashimisha2 » Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:34 am

Unless you have to deal with really shallow water, go for the longer mast.
A longer mast is more stable and prevents breaching.

If you crave the agility of a shorter mast, then buy a smaller stab.
You could offset the cost of a smaller stab by purchasing an aluminum mast.

I am using an aluminum mast and will not switch to carbon, as it is not as stiff and WAY more expensive (Gong).

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Re: Does size matter?

Postby Windigo1 » Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:58 pm

Stability is defined as “The propensity of an object to maintain it’s balance even after being disturbed in relation to the base of gravity. As a good example if a car has a low centre of gravity along with a wide base has been considered the most stable object”

For example a Rolls-Royce is more stable than a cheap car with bad suspension because the passenger in a Rolls-Royce is less affected by the imperfections of the road the passenger and car will move less. In the cheap car the passenger will get tossed around a lot more.

A foil with a short mast will be more stable because if you hit a turbulence in the water and the fuselage gets moved upwards 10 degrees this will translate in a smaller movement of the board with a short mast.

The board with a long mast will experience a larger movement for the same upward movement of the fuselage and the rider will experience a bigger movement on the board just like the less stable car. The rider will have to make a larger movement to bring back the foil to the neutral position with the long mast. Therefore from the rider point of view the board and foil are less stable with a long mast there is more movement and the absence of movement after a disturbance is defined as stability.

I fully agree that once you have mastered a long mast it is easier to ride because you don't have to worry about breaching and you can go faster. But there is a learning curve. This learning curve is because you have to learn to adapt to the increased instability.


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