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Recoating kite fabric

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kiteykitekite
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby kiteykitekite » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:35 pm

That must be some good seam tape, why do they stitch it then? :lol: Do they use seam tape on the tube seams too? Bridle attachments? :lol:

What is the seam tape they use?

nixmatters
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby nixmatters » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:39 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:35 pm
That must be some good seam tape, why do they stitch it then? :lol: Do they use seam tape on the tube seams too? Bridle attachments? :lol:

What is the seam tape they use?
Are you really interested?! Tissue (non-woven) carrier with takified/moified acrylic adhesive, ~150 μm. I can give you some 3M and TESA product references, but the Bainbridge one is just as good and cheaper. Btw, with UV exposure the bonding strength increases a lot!
And I clearly mentioned that the seam holds the tape in the canopy, not LE, reinforcements, etc. If you are so 'know it all'', open a canopy seam, take the tape away, (carefully) stitch it back and make a loop or two. The newer the kite (the more crispy the canopy), the worse it is.
Oh, I fogot you dont't have LEIs in your quiver :nono2:

One more thing - bonded seam technology (for kites too!) ecxists already, not sure who will bring it to market first.

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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby Sfollis » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:05 pm

I used this on an older Ozone Chrono V1. Very easy to apply with a paint brush. The main reason I used it was to improve the water repellent properties of the material which it did. There was no discolouration to the fabric and little dour.
C5A086BA-4056-41FE-8097-553A2D9EF4B6.jpeg
C5A086BA-4056-41FE-8097-553A2D9EF4B6.jpeg (84.18 KiB) Viewed 329 times

kiteykitekite
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby kiteykitekite » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:19 pm

nixmatters wrote: The newer the kite (the more crispy the canopy), the worse it is.
Well that is the problem with glues. On something like a kite they will degrade fast. You also carefully dodged my question on why do they stitch the seam. If the glue worked they wouldn't require stitching. As it is the stitching is the primary and only needed contributor to strength. Tape is used the facilitate manufacture, because graphic designers are the primary driver of kite sales. Graphic designers are also the primary designers of kites, and so have deluded themselves into many strange ideas. Like about illusionary aerodynamic benefits of fat tubes and now apparently the same about double sided tape.

So we will know when glue can hold the seam as you suggest, the kite wont need or have stitching, especially on areas requiring HIGH STRENGTH like the LE. So when a kite is just glued together get back to me and I will no longer call your bullshit.

I would also call into question.
nixmatters wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:39 am
These silicone coatings cannot (or should not) be thinned. Most silicone adhesive systems are not solvent based.
nixmatters wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:14 am
I'm not that fluent with silicone coatings and adhesives.
nixmatters wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:14 am
Doctors blade coating is what all manufacturers of kite canopy cloth use, whether silicone or PU based, but good luck to anyone who wants to try it on a kite :lol:
I have found solvent based silicone quite common, to which you provided examples. The method of surface coating fabric as been commonly used on the fabric used for kites is quite inferior. Coatings should be in the fabric not on the fabric. But I wouldn't expect graphic designers to know better, there primary life skill is putting coatings on things.

nixmatters
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby nixmatters » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:39 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:19 pm
nixmatters wrote: The newer the kite (the more crispy the canopy), the worse it is.
Well that is the problem with glues. On something like a kite they will degrade fast. You also carefully dodged my question on why do they stitch the seam. If the glue worked they wouldn't require stitching. As it is the stitching is the primary and only needed contributor to strength. Tape is used the facilitate manufacture, because graphic designers are the primary driver of kite sales. Graphic designers are also the primary designers of kites, and so have deluded themselves into many strange ideas. Like about illusionary aerodynamic benefits of fat tubes and now apparently the same about double sided tape.

So we will know when glue can hold the seam as you suggest, the kite wont need or have stitching, especially on areas requiring HIGH STENGTH like the LE. So when a kite is just glued together get back to me and I will no longer call your bullshit.
Is my English that bad?! My above quote was clearly referring to a LEI canopy seam (a multidirectional 'zig-zag' lockstitch done with a needle and 2 threads, joining 2 pieces of polyester ripstop) and NO adhesive tape whatsoever.

And then you reply with: "Well that is the problem with glues".

NO, the problem when there is no glue... double adhesive tape, bonding, cohesion (thermal bonding), which serve to distribute the lateral load evenly onto the whole overlapping surface. If you stich the 2 canopy panels together without adhesive, the load is concentrated in the points (needle holes) where the upper and bobbin thread interlock, and especially with a crispy coated polyester riptop, this easily causes a tear.
On an old kite with deteriorated adhesive tape properties, the coating has deteriorated as well and the tear resistance of the ripstop has actually gone up - the adhesive tape and stitching are working in symbiosis.

To your question "why do they stitch the seam":
1. Canopy/spinnaker seams: in layman's terms - to prevent the adhesive tape from peeling off. It's a bit more complex, but I don't feel like entering another exhausting discussion.

2. All other seams - because that's by far the only flexible, reliable and secure method to join the woven fabrics and other materials used currently in LEI kites.

As for the LE - yes, it is the seam (thread) holding it all, not the adhesive tape, which is used to make possible aligning the 2 parts before sewing (to facilitate manufacturing).
Hold, UNLESS an overlap seam is used for joining the LE segments (see my recent reply in the DIY/PanTau topic). In this occasion NO reinforcement (insignia, dacron or other) is needed, just double adhesive tape and stitching.

A kite cannot be fully glued together, no doubt!
But there are areas of the construction where stitching can (and will be) replaced by alternative joining methods. Just have some patience, OK?

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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby dejavu » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:33 pm

I have read the posts here with some interest as I am not opposed to some repairs and maintenance on my kite gear. I am also mindful that kites and their materials deteriorate with use, just like everything. So you buy a brand new kite for $2000 and use it 100 times then it costs you $20 a session. Use it for 5 years and say 250 sessions and it costs you $8 a session. Then recycle.

nixmatters
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby nixmatters » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:33 am

kiteykitekite wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:19 pm
I have found solvent based silicone quite common, to which you provided examples. The method of surface coating fabric as been commonly used on the fabric used for kites is quite inferior. Coatings should be in the fabric not on the fabric. But I wouldn't expect graphic designers to know better, there primary life skill is putting coatings on things.
Foilholio, it is common, true that. I just don't have hand on experience with solvent based silicone coatings for indistrial application in textiles. Mostly due to VOC being very restricted in Europe since years.
Indeed, kite ripstops and spinnakers are all (to the best of my knowledge) surface coated with PU (LEI) or silicone (foils), as they are thin enough to allow sufficient penetration. While dacron is 'impregnated' with melamine resin. The newest dacron coming to the market this year is surface coated, as you call it.

For anyone else following these extensive discussions, go ahead with off the shell stuff! The industrial chemistry is difficult to get and usually requires special conditions like high temperature curing. Even some of the RTV (room temperature vulcanizing) silicones require >120°C.

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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby kiteykitekite » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:10 am

nixmatters wrote: To your question "why do they stitch the seam":
1. Canopy/spinnaker seams: in layman's terms - to prevent the adhesive tape from peeling off.
This is the point if the adhesive used comes apart so easy then it can't be expected to add much if anything to the strength. If it was the opposite, then stitching would not be present. The fact remains stitching is only used on the most high load parts of a tube kite, stitching is also only usually used on all parts of a foilkite. A foil kite and tube are subject to similar loads, particularly on the canopy. It is reasonably to conclude that stitching is the primary and superior way of joining fabric.
nixmatters wrote: On an old kite with deteriorated adhesive tape properties, the coating has deteriorated as well and the tear resistance of the ripstop has actually gone up - the adhesive tape and stitching are working in symbiosis.
I think you are in a fantasy with that statement.

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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby TomW » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:21 pm

Sfollis wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:05 pm
I used this on an older Ozone Chrono V1. Very easy to apply with a paint brush. The main reason I used it was to improve the water repellent properties of the material which it did. There was no discolouration to the fabric and little dour.

C5A086BA-4056-41FE-8097-553A2D9EF4B6.jpeg
Did you use the regular or gold version?

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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby Sfollis » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:36 am

I used the one with UV protection

https://grangers.co.uk/products/fabsil-uv


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