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The Pansh A15, an A18 review

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andrewjohn
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby andrewjohn » Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:52 pm

Hardwarter, keep us posted as to your findings please.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby kitexpert » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:54 pm

"The depower is not on the same level as flysurfer but the stability is beyond them." -foilholio

If so, is the speed system/backline lenght limiting low AoA? Sounds really good if Pansh is more stable than FS, if it is not achieved just by higher AoA. In my experience lack of stability and poor usability are the biggest drawbacks of cheap foilkites - a bit weaker performance is not so critical at all.

"I think it could be possible to drop the whole C bridle, maybe an option more for the smaller ones." -foilholio

??? If some linerow could be dropped, it is B row. It is not possible to pull B 1:2 with one pulley, it is just too much.

"Gaining bar pressure, and shorter sheeting." -foilholio

If C is dropped and B is pulled 1:2, bar pressure surely gets much higher, but kite does not fly. In every case brakes need 1:1 (or more), so shorter sheeting does not give same steering and powering effect. Big kite always needs long bar throw (unless pulley bar is used), because it has about 2m chord.

If B row is dropped (only reasonable possibility) bar pressure gets even lighter or stays nearly the same. With bridled B row quarter of its load comes to bar pressure. Bar throw and sheeting effect to kites AoA does not change if B is dropped.

"Maybe the diablo line would work well with this kite as well."

I think it is worth trying for every highish AR foil kite.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:08 am

I think the stability is definitely because of increased AoA, but also other factors. It's got more depower than a psycho3 and more stability than a speed4, but less depower.

The depower might be B limited. It does still look a bit tight. I will have to play with the mixer a bit and see what is what.

The line plan on pansh website is not correct. To understand why I think C could be dropped you need to see the kite. B is practically in the middle. Which is similar to where B on the original speed 4 is.
A15 B bridle.jpg
A15 B bridle.jpg (38 KiB) Viewed 1141 times
speed4.jpg
I'll hook up an override from C pulley to B main and try it out. Only 2 bits of string it'll disable B pulley and C.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby kitexpert » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:38 pm

foilholio wrote:I think the stability is definitely because of increased AoA, but also other factors. It's got more depower than a psycho3 and more stability than a speed4, but less depower.

The depower might be B limited. It does still look a bit tight. I will have to play with the mixer a bit and see what is what.

The line plan on pansh website is not correct. To understand why I think C could be dropped you need to see the kite. B is practically in the middle. Which is similar to where B on the original speed 4 is.
A15 B bridle.jpg
speed4.jpg
I'll hook up an override from C pulley to B main and try it out. Only 2 bits of string it'll disable B pulley and C.
If that kite really has more depower than P3 and is more stable than S4, it is very good. Real bargain, no doubt about it.

B-line row is very far back indeed. But it is not as far back as in S4, not similar enough. So, if you pull that linerow 1:2, airfoil camber decreases when AoA gets higher. In S4 it increases like it should do.

Linerow positions look interesting, if not strange: B and C are both pulled "too little", so airfoil camber increases a lot but AoA change is smaller in that area than usually. No wonder if bar pressure is light.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Jamie-NYC » Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:23 pm

The following comment is not a review, just a description of the first foil kite experience of new Pansh A15 owner, offered for those considering the kite.

Took my new A15/18m to Turks & Caicos for 12/26-1/1. Uncharacteristically windy December week for TCI, so flew my LEI, but one morning in light winds got the Pansh out to try. Watched the one other foil kite launch to remind myself how to do (from watching videos), but that kite was 12m. The A15/18m stretched the width of Long Bay beach, was a tight spot for it. Launched, and the kite flipped over as it rose off the beach, and down it went on its leading edge, behind a parked kite. It definitely does not steer like an LEI on launch, that is for sure. When I had cleared the lines and was ready to launch a second time, the wind was up, and I decided was better to pack it in. I blew it with the deflate/fold on the cramped beach with now 15knot wind. Long story short, had spaghetti mess of brides and lines by the time the kite went in the bag (will have to figure out how to get to the zipper with kite on it’s back). I put in an hour the next early AM and was able to carefully disconnect and clear the flying lines, and one side bridles. Still have one to go. At least I learned a lot about the bridles in the process. I will wait for summer to try again, on my home beach, which is wide and largely empty in the launch spot.

I have never flown a 5-line kite, and find the fifth line makes the whole kite appear much more complicated. I suspect I will eliminate the 5th line, but will await word from someone who has done so. Foilholio? I also eliminate the center bridle for the 5th line (MUST eliminate it - no effect on flying of kite)? Then make a flagging line for the A set on one side? Finally, no “brake” line for the rear lines, will likely add one for self landing - unless I am missing an easy technique.

I am now at least skeptical of claims that foil kites are more quickly launched. There is a big advantage to having lines stay attached, but the process is more complicated. The bridles and kite also seem comparatively delicate to me, which slows me down as I take care with each step. I expect this will change with experience, but nonetheless, I don’t think the total set-up launch time will differ that much. I wanted the kite for light Long Island summer winds, but also as a light weight travel kit. I am not sure how well it will work for the latter, depending on launch site - though easy self-launch is a plus. I still very much look forward to experimenting with the kite in light winds, though, and have to say that all in all, the whole package is impressive for the relatively small investment.

Still trying to sort all of the excellent technical information in this thread (thanks again Foilholio, KiteExpert, etc.).

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:11 pm

Jamie, you have described almost exactly what many LEI riders experience when they try to fly a foil for the first time. Don't take it too hard and don't blame the gear. Foils are more work to learn than LEI but with experience, they are super fast to set up. They tend to turn slower than LEIs in general but there are ways around that.

While LEI guys are pumping, foils are flying.

Single skins and ReRide equipped Ozone, I can be unpack and riding in less than 2 minutes. A lot of your set up time depends on how good a packer you are. :D

Don't disconnect your lines. Unless you are running one bar on multiple kites. Don't worry too much about durability of the bridles, be careful but they are amazingly tough. Once you get accustomed to how they look it will get a lot easier.

Give it some time. You'll get it figured out and that kite will be a session saver on lighter wind days.

If it makes you feel any better I set up a Kitewing yesterday for the first time. It took me about a half hour. The guy that owns it, does it in about 3 minutes. The wind died by the time I figured it out. Felt like a total donkey. :bye:

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:16 am

It's good to be skeptical! Quite frankly no one would really believe or understand how I launch so quick. I have a unique technique, perhaps the only one in the world that does it. I just had a look for a launch video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb1IvNU5GNI this for example shows a technique launching I basically never use. Most new foil kiters launch in the side of the window. I have no idea why. It can give you a sense of safety I guess, but it requires a lot of beach space,can be difficult to master and things can go pear shaped easy.

There is a number of techniques required to make foil kites less painful, easier , quicker. Someone should make a video :wink: lol. God knows I have spent 50-100x the effort trying to explain it in person. A large percentage of which has just confirmed my nonbelief in educating people. People getting educated ,different, given the right material and format I think anyone can learn anything. Don't despair it's not your fault you cant get it right first time. There is no solid info out there on all the best techniques. A lot of what I know has come from trial and error. Looking back it is a bit much to expect others to work it out themselves as well.

You can get to the zipper by sanding a tip and reach under the leading edge or standing on the tip and pulling the LE till you get to the zip, then continue till you get the other tip and can fold the kite in half or you could fold it in half and then open the zip, either by sanding one tip and walking to pull the other tip or by standing on a tip and pulling the other in by the LE.

"Some" untangling of bridles. Follow hand along LE from the center collecting any bridles covering the LE in your hand till you reach the tip, where you can release them into the wild hopefully to survive :-) You may need to do this for both sides. There is other techniques , involving threading the wrapped or unwrapped bar though lines and bridles. Hard to learn but youll never need to disconnect lines. Youll use that new skill on LEIs (leading edge inflatable) aswell. There is situations where disconnecting a line can be useful, like flying the kite, but that's other realm. Fluff/tease bridle tangles never pull hard on them. The most horrifying messes can come apart in seconds. Follow lines into a tangle and work from there. Pulleys are a pain/source of trouble. Kami wonders why I think the ronstan orbits are stupid.

Launching the kite and trouble situations like relaunching, luffing, etc you always want to generally use a LOT of back line tension, grab those rear line leaders, thats why balls/ thick line/ knots are good or/and a bar with backstall. Launching downwind you want to keep that kite on the ground till its got some air in it, you don't want to let it fly completely up until the tips are open and theres lots of air in it. Youll work this out from kite model to model, they differ a bit, and with experience.

I never used the 5th line or bridle . It came straight off before the lines went on. lol. I have yet to test the FLS(front line safety), just a bit lazy. When I was in 25knots I was tempted, I had visions of things ripping apart though. This is Pansh afterall and it happens on Flysurfers sometimes. An 18m foil should not be used in 25knots, unless of coarse you run a kiteforum. Safety lines are not a huge concern to me. I usually keep good margins from things and releasing the whole kite is not a problem. I use a safety to protect other people and save me some hassle, well maybe a huge hassle. I'll make a note to test it next time and I'll let you know how good it is.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:43 pm

Side window launch is what LEI riders are taught. And what instructors are teaching. Just like never to hot launch or always have someone assist with launching and landing.

We teach launch and landing technique designed to make the rider completely self sufficient.

We always clamshell launch (especially with Arcs or Flysurfers) or hot launch from either a secured stall handle on the brake lines. If we are on kites like a Flysurfer we install stall handles. Wind direction here is always shifting and you need to get launched and out of the launch area as soon as possible or risk tangling with others.

Many of the launch techniques shown by companies are kinda useless. Unless you have steady wind which those of us flying in land rarely get.

Foil launch as simple as things get...

https://youtu.be/0oc-Fg59IfI

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:00 pm

I like your video channel you make me want buy a peak2. I watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntBN-JuwP0U I like the helicoptering. Wow falling through the ice is scary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yCfVu5jXEw

Whats the advantage of rolling the kite without folding it length wise? Surely you could fold trailing edge, then fold length wise and half the rolling? I use the wind to unroll my kite. Folding in half works well with it. You can use the bridles and/or lines to secure the rolled kite. Whats a Clamshell launch? Is that like taco position? Is a stall handle a strap between rear lines?

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:19 pm

The manner in which we roll really depends on the situation. Rolling it up in this manner seems to allow for maximum compaction. The 6m Peak will fit in an average size Camel Back, with the bar, when packed in this manner. I agree with you on folding and especially for closed cells with a center zip.

Really need to replace the video I showed. We are working on an updated version showing multiple methods and how to deal with it in high winds. And there are a multitude of ways to pack a Peak depending on unpacking needs. We have one method that requires almost no unpacking at all beyond simple removing the strap we use to keep things tidy. Allows for deployment and flight in about 15 seconds. (when it works hehehe) Used it once when crossing an interstate through a drain pipe. Pipe is pitched downward, ski through under the highway, pop out at the other side, chuck the kite and unwind the lines as you continue to slowly glide on the momentum from riding the drain. Lines go tense and pow!, kite is live. More a novelty than a useful means of launching a kite but still, fun to see and play with.

Going through the ice, yeah kinda sucks. It's one thing when you expect to but another when it catches you off guard. But if you are dressed right, have the kite in the air and keep your head things can work out. My video pretty much showcased the worst case scenario IMO. Being in the water with almost no wind. I'm good at getting the most out of an Arc so I came out of that situation just fine. But a better light wind kite would have been nice to have that day. :thumb:


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