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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:51 pm
by Kiter_from_Germany
impressive how agile this thread goes...

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:16 am
by foilholio
Yes it is much easier to develop smaller kite than bigger.
kitexpert wrote: Foilholio, you should give a general description from what you have done and what are the goals and what is the reasoning behind your modifications. And a bit more specific level than "to make kite turn better", "to have better high end" or what ever nice wishes.
This has been said before, but I guess it has been lost in many posts. Changes now from stock I have are 3:1 mixer, no C bridles, move and shortened 2 tip B bridles to C (yes technically some of C then still exists lol), shorten Z. Previously I had just shortened Z and used a WAC line. That large previous post was just a reply to someone explaining how I went about my latest changes, so they could too.

Intention is simply to improve the kite for my riding style. Over stock I have observed a faster kite, tighter easier turning, shorter bar throw, easier relaunch, moderate( for foil user not tube) bar pressure. One of the main objectives was to improve bar throw, and it achieves that thoroughly. Turning and response I would view as coming mainly from that. Speed increase from loosing the C bridles, I observed in the exact same wind, C bridles on the kite but disabled then 2 mins later no C bridles at all, speed increase was definitely observable but not massive. A speed gun, or something to measure speed on the kite would have been helpful if I did this for work.
kitexpert wrote: I don't think any 9m kite owner will make similar mods as yours based on 18m kite, even if there is a "bridle size conversion table" available.
This is a silly assertion you make. I have used bridle conversion before and it works quite well. This mod deals mainly with the mixer. Most likely all A15 Pansh mixers are the same. But even if they are not then careful restoration, of the AB limit and the mixer setting will have the kite close to as before. Then Merely adjusting Z and tip C will get things right. Sure a 9m and 18m are quite different but, the adjust between won't be that great.

The funny thing as well you design in kite CAD and that only uses bridle conversion to make different sizes. You are basically saying your design process doesn't work!
kitexpert wrote: Best is if you could show a drawing using original line plan picture of A15, it really is too arduous to dig what you are suggesting from your long posts.
Pictures would be much easier, but if a person wants to do the mod they can from what I wrote. To me it is quite simple, but I have much more experience than most. Aswell what I wrote is more help than I have ever received!

kitexpert wrote: One problem is when whole line row is taken away loads for the rest attachment points increase and something can fail.
Well observed by C before going slack, plus understanding of low wing loading at that area and B and Z are already close, then we can very reasonably make the guess C had very low loading. Loading is then passed to B and Z, which are of the same construction of A and A will still have higher loading. Z is also particularly low loading and can take more. There are LCLs, and I don't have much reason to think a structural failure will be a problem. A main which was a problem is now doubled as well!
kitexpert wrote: So there is no more C line row, then how much B is pulled?
Yes amazing C is gone and my original thoughts when I first saw the kite that it could go are proven correct! I believe I have used the same B(Z) setting as before, but will have to check. I did change it around a bit while testing things. AB limit is the same, I tried longer originally but I was trying to get WAC working and with the reduced mixer travel I had trouble. I gave up on WAC with this mixer it is not really compatible.

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:05 pm
by gmasiak
Thank you foilholio for all the information. This looks very advanced tune up for me... I'm not on this level yet :)

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:19 pm
by foilholio
Np , In my mind and implementation it is quite simple for me. Typing it out is complicated. If I did a couple of pictures it could be much simpler. Sorry about that. I will look at doing something better once I am more final.

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:44 pm
by foilholio
Tested the kite more. Very good, enough of an improvement to call this A15 Version 2 or Version 6 or something in LEI speak :-) The improved feel at the bar and shorter throw really helps. Upwind is quite improved, I put it down to the reduced bridles and reduced camber. Stability, particularly tips seems really good, much better than my previous setup. I see no issue dropping the C bridle at all, it is absolutely not needed. Kite floats much better, weight reduction is noticeable. I think anyone that tries this mod will be quite impressed.

2 easy paths for further changes now, adding back in B tip bridle which should improve turn a bit, but may destabilize the tip, and flatten Z by adding tip extensions, which will improve performance, increase tip stability, may reduce turn. Hopefully someone else joins in to try some of this.

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:17 pm
by kitexpert
If you pull B 1:3, it is more than original 1:4. It means camber of the kite is decreased when AoA is increased (bar sheeted in). It does not make much sense, usually it is meant that camber increases when AoA increases, because it gives more lift.

It is difficult to understand how decreased camber could improve upwind. Generally kite with lower camber flies slower and sits deeper in the window. To tweak kite to lower camber is even worse because it generates excessive drag.

Stability may be better if there is some tension in B all the time, however this help is not necessary there when it is most needed. If Z is lengthened in the wingtip area turning of the kite will suffer.

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:22 pm
by foilholio
Yes the ratio increase will reduce camber. It is easy to compensate changing settings but because I dropped WAC and kept old settings camber is now lower, I have always found lower camber to have better upwind. Usually minimal tension in Z, I would say not enough to distort it is best. Flysurfer would agree with me, from their statements on it. If you read about lower camber, negative camber, use of negative flaps, you will understand more about how they increase lift to drag. Drag is directly related to Lift and higher camber produces more lift and with it drag. There is of course the problem then that low camber may not give sufficient lift to even kite, water start etc. This is were foils are great because you can choose. Things like a camber adjusting bar would be great for racing. High camber for transitions, water start and downwind,then low camber for upwind.

The intention with lengthening Z at the tip is to improve efficiency, i.e. reduce drag. The stability increase does allow Z to be shortened overall more, which equals more lift. Overall I would say it is a performance or stability seeking mod with turning as victim.

Turning is a strange obsession with Tube kiters and their designers. Funny because their best kiters, their pro wakestylers, don't like kites that turn fast lol. Most kiting is in a strait line after all. Sure pretending to ride waves with turns on flat water in front of waves ( for pictures) or on lakes ,well that needs a fast turning kite. Loops are also easier the faster a kite turns, but not many kiters can or do them. Surfing needs no kite, especially not one that turns fast. Though it is nicer to connect sections and make changes with a faster kite, though not necessary. Often with full slack lines there is no quick response from any kite. You are at the mercy of the wave like proper surfing.

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:18 pm
by foilholio
Ideas where I might go next.

I will continue developing this mod, as it has worked out so well, A15 V2. But some long running ideas and the fact this 3 bridle row kite works so well, have me now eager to try these ideas. So this could could possibly be a A15 V3 or in LEI speak it would be like V55 or something. You would be waiting till 2040 before any LEI did this :-) well without some pushing.

Now I have over (or maybe under) hyped this, it could all go flop, but lets try.

So the idea is a secondary A bridle or adaptable A bridle. The idea is quite simple to have one A bridle have a more C shape and the other a more flat shape or have parts of the A bridle manipulated to change the Arc. It should in theory avoid the low end negatives of the Pyscho4 method of Arc change, which is fixed to higher AOA. I think the AoA will stay constant with lesser Arc. I really don't know the effects Arc change have on AoA though. but I know the Pycho4 C shape is designed to reduce AoA on the tips. I just don't see this happening on the A15 as standard. Sure I can alter it by moving attachments forward and change camber. It is a crux of the Psycho 4 design, it is how it gets the amount of depower it does but it also causes the tips to collapse. I think the A15 tips won't collapse, but will I get the desired depower, and can I created enough C shape with out interfering with the flat bridle?

So implementation. I reinstate a 421 mixer and use the old B pulley to run the A funk. Easy I guess, surprised someone hasn't tried this. Or have they? :-) Cue kitexpert to tell me I am wasting my time... though he seemed a bit surprised when I dropped C. I think that's like a head spin in kite design dance offs. ROFL.

I am having another idea to make the Arc changeable with a secondary trim...but one thing at a time.

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:32 pm
by Kiter_from_Germany
good to hear - new ideas always welcome.
It takes energy to reset and/or test something new -
but thats how were progessing.
I must admit going back from backweighted to conventional mixer design, strengthening Z system and getting rid of stability issues - but its a long way to get really happy with it... upwind capabilities are alwas an issue with ‚overstabilized‘ kites... but on the other hand: who wants an upwind monster which is collapsing a mile offshore?

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:43 am
by foilholio
You have given up on backweighted mixer?

Removing C improves upwind significantly.