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Pansh Genesis and some tuning

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faklord
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby faklord » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:05 pm

S2000kitesurfer wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:58 am
NorthernKitesAus wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:41 am
I must be lucky. My Pansh Genesis 2019 12m is perfect. Unless I see a video showing the before and after of changing the bridles/mixer on the Genesis, I don't see the point. If anything mine probably needs less power, because it's very powerful when looping and has to have long (>24m) lines for it to loop entirely in 17-22knots. Not a kite I would do a mega loop on, but hey if I can get it to look within a 7-10metre diameter, that would be awesome.
The 10m also before this mod was grunty now the bar throw has far more dpower and control . Definitely try it. From unusable to very usable for the wife.
How would you say the 10m Genesis compares, in terms of power (for hydrofoil and surfboard), to a typical LEI? I’m wondering whether 10m of 12m would be best option for next kite up from 10m LEI?

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kitexpert » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:20 pm

foilholio wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:01 am
kitexpert wrote: If you look Speed4dlx wingtips you see a fold there when you sheet in, one line row can't unfortunately support it well enough. This problem becomes even more evident when kite is used and inner pressure gets worse. Almost all Speed4dlx''s suffer wingtip problems, also mine.
Oh dear big deal the wing tips fold. I mean Z should really have less tension there to improve the L/D.
kitexpert wrote: If some kite really has camber decrease then increase during powering up it is because Z is too loose or it is of insignificant scale.
Wrong No.
kitexpert wrote:In any case it is not a useful property for kite.
Wrong again. It is very useful. Maybe stick to designing LEIs.
kitexpert wrote:Calling any deformation of kite "camber" is too unclear
What are changes to the shape then? As described on the airfoil. Curves or folds down in say the front third, middle, rear third and then rear? What are those changes called again? On a airfoil or wing? The word starts with a C I think. Maybe you can help me, I have forgotten.

No wonder you struggle with these things. You can't even a hold a rigid use of the words.
kitexpert wrote: Then when kite is powered/depowered this build in camber may or may not change, depending how it is designed to work (bridle locations, mixer pulley ratios).
Great to explain this for the 100th time, we are talking not usually about designing kites but kites already designed. I personally have not seen depowerable kites that do not change camber.
kitexpert wrote: Changing camber by tweaking the mixer - having some camber preset - can never be more than fine tuning.
It can do far more than just "fine tuning"
kitexpert wrote:Real changes in camber require different kite shape
The amount that camber gets ramped into a kite from a mixer would never work as a sewn shape. The kite would just collapse.
kitexpert wrote: if this is tried to be achieved by tweaking kite will distort itself
So? and it is tried and done and it does distort the kite and the kite is better for it. How many years now and you can't still grasp variable camber? Stick to LEIs.
kitexpert wrote: Some parts of it lack fabric and some parts have too much, result is not at all smooth wing
So? You don't seem to mind that big lump on LEIs. I would say you would have been desiring it to be bigger out of some strange belief it was an airfoil. What is a small fold in the fabric in comparison. Probably many things I am sure when your foundational understanding of aerodynamics is wrong.
LoL, if wingtips fold and do not recover it makes using kite miserable. Folding and flapping wingtips ruin kite performance as well. In some old Speed4dlx's fold can be seen through the kite from wingtip to wingtip, again because of lack of bridle support with decreased inner pressure. I'm not surprised FS ditched two line concept (except for high end race kites).

Weird shapes in kites due to bad mixer settings or slacking line rows are best called just deformations, distorsions, folds or lumps etc.. Useful camber line in airfoil or wing is much more uniform and clean by its shape.

Very probably most foil kites do change camber a bit when powered up. It is very easy thing to achieve but it is also just a small bonus. Normal speed system and inner structure design of kite don't allow very well more than just a slight effect here. Turbo bridle is more effective method (kicks in when fully powered) but it is used only in few race kites. For most kiters raging downwind with maximum speed is not so important that turbo bridle is worth it.

Mixer don't "ramp" any camber to kite except what is possibly preset there by tweaking it and what is designed with pulley ratios and line row locations. Tweakings are limited because kite shape distorts, however there is some room for adjustments.

Much better flying kite than kite which is tweaked to higher camber is achieved if kite is originally designed for that higher camber.

One of the biggest LEI advantages over foil kites is how clean (upper) surface they have.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby tomtom » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:42 pm

Thats why they dominate in high L/D application like racing :)

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kitexpert » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:04 pm

tomtom wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:42 pm
Thats why they dominate in high L/D application like racing :)
Racing is a small fraction of kite sports. There of course high AR foil kites are superior, mainly because of their high AR. However last racing LEI kites were quite effective, like Airush VXR which was quite close to Speed performance.

Boosting is for most a lot more important measure of performance than racing. Good luck to boost over 30m with Pansh Genesis :) It has about same projected AR (probably more) than freeride boosting LEI kites.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:54 pm

PugetSoundKiter wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:54 am
Regis-de-giens wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:29 pm
foilholio wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:19 pm
No it is the varying tension to different parts of the wing that makes it powerable or depowerable. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes it change camber. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes the kite change AoA.
No , on a standard foil kite, camber is not a matter of tension. It is a matter of geometry assuming rigid chords: profile and camber variation is "imposed" geometrically, and MUST be independant on tension in the briddles. Any variation in tension (due to gust, turbulence, turns against the canopy) should bot affect the profile . Other wise kite stability / control will suffer. Geometry shall on the contrary remain stable in all range of tensions in briddles.
I'm with foilholio on this one :cheers:
BandC-CamberChanges.gif
Kitexpert is right on this remark (not on all but here yes... :wink: ) : yes a depower kite is a kite that can cange its AoA without affecting (to much) the camber (camber overall , indeed it is not just camber); is opposition, a 4 line kite can change mainly is camber ( and a little the AoA) and is not a "depower kite" as you know.

but I must (gently ) say that I am sorry to say that Foilholio is either wring or has not understood my point ; IT IS not a matter of tension (on the contrary we seek as being the most independent on tension possible, hence rigid cloth and rigid mixer test. Will try to explain differently
foilholio wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:01 am
Regis-de-giens wrote: No , on a standard foil kite, camber is not a matter of tension.
It certainly is, foil kites are flexible. You can observe the deformations, though downward deformations of reduced camber are hard by yourself.
Regis-de-giens wrote:It is a matter of geometry assuming rigid chords
Assuming a foil kite is rigid is a mistake. They have some rigidity but remain flexible.
Regis-de-giens wrote: profile and camber variation is "imposed" geometrically, and MUST be independant on tension in the briddles. Any variation in tension (due to gust, turbulence, turns against the canopy) should bot affect the profile . Other wise kite stability / control will suffer. Geometry shall on the contrary remain stable in all range of tensions in briddles.
Ok I get what you are thinking. The problem with a pure geometric model is the kites shape changes with tension and how it is applied. You do have the sewn shape but depending how the bridles are things change. The tension model is the reality of the kite though. You vary tension then also geometry can change. More tension on B can slacken C. If pulling one bridle then the others change. Foil kites because they have not much rigidity are difficult to design for. Unlike LEI ,which I think what kitexpert is really an expert in, you can not just force things more.
Of course I never said that a kite is rigid and they deform (it is drawback which we try to reduce), neither that tension has no impact ; it has impact which we force to fight, and the Mixer test is not at all for this matter and is working on a controlled and stable geometry changes ( line length with very stiff bridles on the Mixer) ; tension will change ( a little bit, but alost nothing ) on the bridle length of the mixer test ; the more large diameter, the stiffer they are, the les dependant on tension we are, the best it is ! ; look at every (proved) mixer test : non relies on tension, but only on pure geometrical length (A, B, C, Z) changes. The sketch of PugetSoundKiter shows it very well : the AoA change is based on displacement of bridles A vs B vs C vs Z , not on tension in the bridles (at all) ; if A, B, C, Z location was depending on tension, you would have a profile that varies ON PURPOSE in a turbulence or gusts, which is obviously not what we want...

So, a Speed system ( mixer test) MUST be stable in tension (i.e. the profile of the kite piloted by ABCZ bridles shall not depend on tensions, or at least the minimum possible with large diameter bridles , hard cloth and high internal pressure) ; this is actually the main reason why Malabar does not relaunch well : because during a reverse relaunch, you pull on rear lines with more tension than front line (this case does not happen during the ride, hence pulley bar working well); then the Z (going through the C pulley) will iun-balance and pull on the B (unfortunately) too much , thus the AoA cannot revert even if you pull with a high stroke on the rear lines : Z too far and B to close to the rider = kite does not relaunch because AoA is not reverted like on a classic foilkite with direct control of Z from the bar.

Clear as Crystal !!! :thumb:

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby foilholio » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:53 pm

kitexpert wrote: LoL, if wingtips fold and do not recover it makes using kite miserable. Folding and flapping wingtips ruin kite performance as well.
Ok what you mean is the wingtips are collapse, I thought you were just saying the airfoil had a fold or kink in it. But anyway 3 bridle rows is not going to cause the tips to collapse, not at all. There is likely more design to get 3 rows to work well but that does not mean they don't work.
kitexpert wrote: In some old Speed4dlx's fold can be seen through the kite from wingtip to wingtip, again because of lack of bridle support with decreased inner pressure.
So you are talking about a fold in the airfoil. f*** it is not clear at all what you are talking about. Folds in the airfoil are common, even for highly bridled things like paragliders. PA change like which also the speed4dlx does also cause folds across the entire kite. Maybe that is what you are getting confused about. You have been over educated of what flying things should or should not be or do.
kitexpert wrote: Weird shapes in kites due to bad mixer settings or slacking line rows are best called just deformations, distorsions, folds or lumps etc.. Useful camber line in airfoil or wing is much more uniform and clean by its shape.
Semantics and opinion. Mine is bridles can pull things that are not weird and are clean. They are certainly not lumps but quite smooth deflections.
kitexpert wrote:Mixer don't "ramp" any camber to kite
Certainly do. Maybe you don't understand the word ramp.
kitexpert wrote: Much better flying kite than kite which is tweaked to higher camber is achieved if kite is originally designed for that higher camber.
Not at all that would be a horrible kite, something a tube designer would come up with. Much better to design a kite with lower camber so it depowers quite stably and then pull camber in with the bridles.
kitexpert wrote: One of the biggest LEI advantages over foil kites is how clean (upper) surface they have.
They don't have a clean upper surface it flaps all over the town, bottom surface does it too. :-)
kitexpert wrote: However last racing LEI kites were quite effective, like Airush VXR
HAHA is that a joke? Airush? What a shit brand and designs.
kitexpert wrote:Good luck to boost over 30m with Pansh Genesis
Could just use the new Aeolus instead.
Regis-de-giens wrote: yes a depower kite is a kite that can cange its AoA without affecting (to much) the camber

Depends on the kite, they change camber to varying degrees. A15 for example changes it alot. Modification can increase or decrease the camber ramping.
Regis-de-giens wrote: but I must (gently ) say that I am sorry to say that Foilholio is either wring or has not understood my point
No I do understand it. You are looking at things geometrically as in the physical limits. Where as I am stating tension. They are both valid it is just I think tension is the baser principle. The reason being nothing is truly rigid on these kites.
Regis-de-giens wrote: look at every (proved) mixer test : non relies on tension, but only on pure geometrical length
I suggest you try a mixer test with no tension. Just randomly through the lines on the ground and make your adjustments.
Regis-de-giens wrote: The sketch of PugetSoundKiter shows it very well : the AoA change is based on displacement of bridles A vs B vs C vs Z , not on tension in the bridles (at all)
Well next time to avoid tension, try fly your kite with no wind and demonstrate the AoA change.
Regis-de-giens wrote: because during a reverse relaunch, you pull on rear lines with more tension than front line
And there it is you just proved my argument. Tension is the baser principle.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kitexpert » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:07 pm

Thanks Regis for explaining things. I've struggled quite a lot to understand foilholio's view on how kite (mixer/bridle) works, so answering to numerous points have been difficult and also taking too much time. Perhaps folholio's view explains why he has thought so much is possible to achieve with adjustments and bridle/mixer modifications. However in some cases quite a lot can be achieved - but this is mainly to fix and restore bad settings to good and original or to complete poor design like in Pansh Genesis. To think average kite can be changed to high performance kite just by adjusting or inventing a new mixer with new pulley ratios is just false, it isn't going to happen.

"Tension/flexible" view of foil kite is weird because you can very easily see foil kite is quite rigid in flight, it does not do much more than change AoA when bar is sheeted in/out. Possible camber change is so small you can't see it except Turbo bridle which pulls finally Z a lot. And you shouldn't see anything, if you see some line row is too tight or slacking it is an issue to fix.

Main pull of the kite goes via A line row straight to the kiter, there isn't certainly any flex there. Rest of the depowerable kite is forced to move (to change AoA) in geometrical and mechanical manner like Regis already explained, any flexing is not good.

Finally pulley ratios for usual mixer and Malabar:

Usual: Z 1:1, C 1:2, B 1:4, A fixed
Malabar: Z 2:1, C 1:1 B 1:2 A fixed

Very easy to see Malabar has twice the effect of usual mixer, so it is same as 2:1 pulley bar in that respect.

These ratios are line row movements related to bar movement, so giving actual movements in kite. To announce ratios between line rows (like 421 for Malabar) is not as good practice IMO.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:18 pm

faklord wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:05 pm
S2000kitesurfer wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:58 am
NorthernKitesAus wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:41 am
I must be lucky. My Pansh Genesis 2019 12m is perfect. Unless I see a video showing the before and after of changing the bridles/mixer on the Genesis, I don't see the point. If anything mine probably needs less power, because it's very powerful when looping and has to have long (>24m) lines for it to loop entirely in 17-22knots. Not a kite I would do a mega loop on, but hey if I can get it to look within a 7-10metre diameter, that would be awesome.
The 10m also before this mod was grunty now the bar throw has far more dpower and control . Definitely try it. From unusable to very usable for the wife.
How would you say the 10m Genesis compares, in terms of power (for hydrofoil and surfboard), to a typical LEI? I’m wondering whether 10m of 12m would be best option for next kite up from 10m LEI?
Right using a modified two strut 2.6kg north Dyno 10m I was happy in averaging 11 knots. 10m Genesis happy in 8 to 9 knots averaging.
Dyno I will be getting stacked/overpowered av 16
Genesis I would expect the same feeling around 20 knots absolutely huge range.
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby foilholio » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:28 am

kitexpert wrote: "Tension/flexible" view of foil kite is weird because you can very easily see foil kite is quite rigid in flight, it does not do much more than change AoA when bar is sheeted in/out. Possible camber change is so small you can't see it except Turbo bridle which pulls finally Z a lot.
You can't make a blind man see so it is pointless I guess. I wouldn't expect meaningful employment as a kite designer if I were you.
kitexpert wrote: To think average kite can be changed to high performance kite just by adjusting or inventing a new mixer with new pulley ratios is just false, it isn't going to happen.
Except this new mixer takes foil kite turning to LEI level. Something Flysurfer in all it's years strived for but fell somewhat short. So it has happened, it wasn't a largely useless kite designer that invented it and it was quite simple. What did you used to say? Oh I remember something like mixers were settled designs...
kitexpert wrote: To announce ratios between line rows (like 421 for Malabar) is not as good practice IMO.
It's perfect practice. You can include the bar ratio if you like, 4421vs2421or4842.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kitexpert » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:18 pm

I'm not saying you are blind, foilholio. You have just invented your own way to explain kites, unfortunately it is weird and not very much (if at all) related to reality. I'm not saying everything you write or give advice here is wrong, not at all. Your basis is however wrong and it is not useful starting point to develop kites. Don't you see how complicated your explanations become? Most people struggle to understand what do you mean. Kites really aren't that difficult.

These new mixers have at least couple of issues: they are not new and they are not needed in proper kites. Like I've told many times, current 1:2:4 mixer works very well because it allows kite (normal sized) to change its AoA within range it can use and tolerate, and it allows this within reasonable bar sheeting range.

If kite is small or if it has high AR (short chord) even this normal mixer is too effective, usual bar travel has to be limited to avoid over steering and over sheeting. Using something even more efficient would be completely foolish.

Of course using pulley bar or Malabar mixer makes it twice as efficient, halving the needed bar movement. However this shorter bar travel may lead to unintentional back stalls and at least it makes system more critical to small changes. Bar pressure gets also much higher.

Apparently I must say it clearer: your method to announce pulling ratios (with bar ratios?) is bad.


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