Thanks it was a bit. I wish finding graphs for different models of paraglider was easier because they are similar to kites. One thing I didn't explain is the graphs with regards to kiting are reversed and also truncated. Well the paraglider one is the closest because it is the same technology but needs to be reversed and then too for kites that increase drag depowered you would likely have some weird or maybe just sudden dip at a end.Regis-de-giens wrote: I must thank you for all the effort you put on your answer
With reversing the graph you have the kite start faster, then as you sheet in you achieve maximum L/D and then with sheeting a little more you achieve maximum lift. So my statements of flying the kite as fast as possible are not quite correct. But I do know this flying kites, it's just the amount you sheet in for max L/D or Pull/Lift (flying) is not much. The amount you can sheet for max lift with static flight is quite a lot though. But you will never get as much pull static as you can get active. What the graph shows is as wind increases so too does the speeds for both max lift/pull and L/D.
Yes and no. You can have a larger kite with lower L/D generate more pull than a smaller kite with higher L/D and so too you can have the opposite. It all depends how much size difference and how much L/D difference. If you take something like a very low AR kite foil or tube and compare it against the high AR race kites it is easy to make more pull from the race kite in many sizes smaller. A good example is the Peak 4 vs Moderate AR normal foil kites. The smaller foil kites are able to water start before a larger peak 4, ask tomtom about it.Regis-de-giens wrote: if you have a larger kite, even if less L/D ratio , you get more pull of it ; do you agree ?
So when you enter in other things like riding upwind it gets more complicated, but still the advantage is to the higher L/D with all things being equal and then even they can be unequal some and the advantage still remains. Weight is a big thing and if the kite won't fly it doesn't matter it's "L/D" it is no good. So at the very low end other things can be important, but I would emphasize that you can view this effect of weight at the low end as an effect on L/D too. The kite at the limit of supporting it's own weight will be stalling and have horrible lift to drag.
No not at all. Get out of the water is a 2 part equation, you have the lift or pull from the kite but you also have the lift from the board/hydrofoil. For the board you can have huge static lift, you can have a sup, with no pull from the kite you are out of the water. With the board or the hydrofoil you can also have huge amount of dynamic lift, that with little pull from the kite will start raising your body or board out of the water. It is also possible to raise your body and in steps flying the kite and it is also possible to pump both a board and a hydrofoil. I am not saying any part of any of this is easy because it is not there is so many techniques you can use to waterstart that combining and timing them all is very very hard. I have found that focusing on the kite flight I can get far more benefit than if I just focus on pumping. If I try both it is just too hard. I can do a more simple flight and pump but the more advanced flight is better. Maybe in the future I will be better. Already though I think sometimes I can start in 7knots with a 6m. There is using the swell to start as well, you time your water start like catching a wave.Regis-de-giens wrote: to get out of the water you need a pull during a certain time ; do you agree ? If yes
So one disadvantage you will have with longer lines is more drag, which will lower your L/D. Yes I know longer lines work well, but not for going upwind. It's just something to consider.Regis-de-giens wrote: and assuming acceptable line length in the range of 30 meters and a similar kite surface
So this is a good point, the turn itself is detrimental to the pull and yes some kites are better than others at this. This would also be where the big advantage to longer lines is, just not too long would be the trick. I can definitely see that a kite with the better turn will beat the higher L/D kite that can't. This is actually a place I felt tubes are better, with a fast tube I could work more power than a foil kite. I am guessing that inertia is playing a huge negative to foil kites.Regis-de-giens wrote: kite that pursue a good flying during a movement (loops or 8 moves) can be more efficient; and a high AR (which is a condition of high L/D ratio) goes in detriment of this pull during a turn.
Yes there is other things but I feel L/D is one of the most important. Other things are important too. You can prove your point more though by getting that XXlite working well. But to me all things equal and sometimes not then better L/D equals better lowend. It is more correct to say that, than just say weight of the kite is important, though it is.Regis-de-giens wrote: So low end is not always better with high L/D simply.
So yes you get more lift with camber, but you get maximum lift by combining a little camber with quite some speed. Aircraft are different because they can be powered and then they also can have flaps that increase the wing area a lot. I think this is an interesting subject and there is not enough data on it. You can't find configurations say for flaps, AoA and speed for most planes for maximum lift because only maximum glide ratio is considered necessary. It is well established that maximum lift and L/D are closely related. From the examples I gave the speed difference is about 10% but the lift can be quite different. To me this explains how I find this riding. I sheet in flying the kite so pull increases but the kite doesn't slow or barely slows. I have naturally learnt this on my own but it is nice to know some data behind it. Being able to tune the camber while you fly the kite would be great too. I am quite certain with experience you can see by eye if Z is being pulled too much or too little. I guess this is where something like the LMT is good, but I always found flysurfer could be a bit on the slower tuned side.Regis-de-giens wrote: Yes, or a similar surface , and assuming a similar camber for example; I agree (from start ....) ; camber changes the game, otherwise camber on planes would never increase at the landing phase .... but again, as above quoted, a higher AR kite is not faster in turn for example, so not more powerful for the overall water start process.
Through my reading I learnt about displacement and sink rate. It would be why foils and particular big ones drift so well, because of their volume but also combined with other things. The ultimate drifting kite may be one that is very fat. Though I tend to like the idea of the dihedral concept and also thinner faster kites for most use.