Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Pansh Genesis and some tuning

For all foil kite riders
kitexpert
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Gear: many kites, also diy
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kitexpert » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:51 pm

ljackov wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:20 pm
I've already written on the camber. Normally when Genesis and A15 are depowered, there's a slack on the Z bridles, which means the kite "hangs" on A-B-C. At some point of sheeting the bar in the Z slack is gone and some camber kicks in. With my mod the camber kick-in is earlier and more slowly, reaching the same camber as the original mixer when the bar is fully sheeted in.

Also, the heavier bar pressure means the kite is more responsive even on longer lines as the wind drift on the long lines is reduced due to the higher tension.
Yes, if you got some line rows slacking they engage later and affect pulley ratios in that respect, but it is a messy starting point. However at some point when possible Z slack is gone it does not mean "some camber kicks in", it is more like (silly) negative camber starts to decrease when kite turns to bigger AoA. If kite is adjusted like that it is not at all good for how kite flies and respectively if your mod makes camber kick in earlier (in reality: makes kite to change its AoA more uniformly), it is for sure beneficial.

So again, I think there is some misunderstanding between how kite changes AoA and how it possibly changes camber. This latter property is not at all a necessity, it is the AoA change which makes kite depowerable/powerable, not a possible camber change.

I repeat: every foil kite works just fine even if there is 0 camber change during the AoA change. But if camber decreases during powering up it is very probably harmful, it doesn't make sense.

Heavier bar pressure has some advantages for sure. But if I think for example a Speed 21 which pulls heavy and has already some bar pressure when sheeted in to be used with a pulley bar (or Malabar) I'm afraid it would get too tiring to use. And it is a kite which you could think would benefit most from having higher pulley ratios because of its huge size (chord length).

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3357
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 204 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby foilholio » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:19 pm

kitexpert wrote: I repeat: every foil kite works just fine even if there is 0 camber change during the AoA change.
No. What foil kites work with zero camber change? none I have used. In fact altering them so that the camber is not negative for some of their sheet range severely ruins their usability.
kitexpert wrote: However at some point when possible Z slack is gone it does not mean "some camber kicks in"
It certainly does. Z varying it's tension means camber is changing.
kitexpert wrote: This latter property is not at all a necessity, it is the AoA change which makes kite depowerable/powerable, not a possible camber change.
No it is the varying tension to different parts of the wing that makes it powerable or depowerable. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes it change camber. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes the kite change AoA. It is the position of the kite in the window that affects the majority of the kites AoA. See a kite with fixed bridles can still change AoA. A change in a kites camber can also cause a change in it's AoA. You do know that airfoils have AoA too right?
kitexpert wrote: Yes, if you got some line rows slacking they engage later and affect pulley ratios in that respect, but it is a messy starting point.
But that is how you get the best range of functions from a foil kite. What foil kites don't work like this?
kitexpert wrote: If kite is adjusted like that it is not at all good for how kite flies and respectively if your mod makes camber kick in earlier
But that is how all the foil kites I have flown fly, changing it not to do it means they aren't as good.
kitexpert wrote: But if camber decreases during powering up it is very probably harmful, it doesn't make sense.
But camber does decrease powering up. It is how every foil kite I have used works. Camber decreases then increases.
kitexpert wrote: Heavier bar pressure has some advantages for sure. But if I think for example a Speed 21 which pulls heavy and has already some bar pressure when sheeted in to be used with a pulley bar (or Malabar) I'm afraid it would get too tiring to use. And it is a kite which you could think would benefit most from having higher pulley ratios because of its huge size (chord length).
Well on a redesign adjust the bridle placements so the bar pressure is right. For instance Z can go on the very TE. No need to bring it forward for shorter bar throw and better turn as the mixer does that. On the TE it should give performance benefits, you could also likely run a fifth line to them and flag the kite like that. Move B and C back, which should support the kite better and further reduce bar pressure.

ljackov
Rare Poster
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:37 am
Kiting since: 2015
Gear: Pansh
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby ljackov » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:21 pm

"This latter property is not at all a necessity, it is the AoA change which makes kite depowerable/powerable, not a possible camber change. "

I totally agree with this. There are kites in which B and C go more or less at 1/4 and 1/2 of the chord, which means no camber at all with normal 1:2:4 mixer. In most Pansh kites, however, B is at approx. 1/3 of the chord and C is at 2/3 of the chord.

kitexpert
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Gear: many kites, also diy
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kitexpert » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:59 pm

foilholio wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:33 pm
kitexpert wrote:I guess foilholio meant that when he wrote:
Yes this new mixer has less camber change.
kitexpert wrote: However after all it is not about camber change but simple AoA change which mainly defines how kite behaves. Possible (positive) camber change is only a small bonus on top of that.
Not even remotely close to correct. Camber change is the mainstay of advanced foil kite design. Without it much function is lost. Camber is also the mainstay of airfoil design, but AoA is important too. You did realize that airfoils have inbuilt AoA right?
kitexpert wrote: Drawbacks are heavier bar pressure and possibility to back stall kite due to over steering, to choke it.
Heavier bar reduces oversheeting.
merl wrote: Foilholio, why not just draw pictures? Doesn't have to be fancy. You communicate with so many words that much of what you say gets lost. (which is a shame)
Good point. It is easier for me to type and even easier for you or say pugetsoundkiter to draw for me :-). I will just go to working out the best arrangement with what lines need to be changed and then come back with a pic maybe.
a99 wrote: Probably we can to call it simple Pansh or Genesis (modification) mixer :) or Revers pulleys or X (becausd one pulley up one down).
Xmixer sounds good or maybe 2Xmixer or crossmixer. Would be good if the inventor would suggest something. Calling it variations of mod or mixer is a little confusing.
kitexpert wrote:Like I wrote, Malabar is very much same as pulley bar.
Until you relaunch.
kitexpert wrote: This Mod-1 is pulls little less Z so giving LESS "line tension on the rear" (at least when compared to Malabar, which in turn is similar to pulley bar).
Mod1 has more Z tension when you relaunch.
kitexpert wrote: How less or more complicated they are or how they affect to relaunch I don't know because I don't use neither.
Malabar=no relaunch.
kitexpert wrote: Can you foilholio explain how do you think or calculate differences between pulley ratios of Z for "Mod-1" and Malabar? I'm afraid it is not working.
I did before. Ratios are 321 mod1 vs 421 Malabar. Because Z pulley line is on B it moves down for 1 reducing Z by 1.
S2000kitesurfer wrote: I'm also contemplating A15 with mod to replace my 12m soul
The mod kind of makes all flysurfer's effort to try make a foil kite like an LEI irrelevant...such a simple change and yet so dramatic an effect. Poor kite designers. It is hardly a profession that attracts the best though, rockets, ai and electric cars are far more pertinent. Watch though it will be interesting to see how long it takes them to pick this up. They can be a stubborn lot too. I mean they are still designing new chickenloops lol. After 20 years they still haven't noticed practically no one unhooks. But by george do keep making the wrong product that's certainly the way you don't sell something.
S2000kitesurfer wrote:Interesting turbo pulley for the aurora.
That's a diablo line. This mod is better.
Ok, I don't know how they perform at the relaunch, but it wasn't about it, it was about how much Z is pulled in those mods. If you say rear lines are tighter even though they are pulled less it is misleading and it makes me think whether you understand it correctly or not.

For kite behavior it is quite important how much Z is pulled. If it is pulled too little it means steering gets worse and also that kite decreases camber when it should stay same or preferably increase. This means kite produces less lift (relatively, compared to what could be possible) when more lift is needed. Kite also backstalls earlier.

I am not going to start to argue camber change significance. Camber itself is very significant factor how kite or any wing behaves, perhaps even more than AR.

Using a pulley bar or Malabar is not at all new idea or something foil kite designers have been craving for. For normal good kites usual 1:2:4 speed system works very well, it allows kite to change AoA within its working range: from smallest AoA it can have and it can tolerate to highest AoA without back stall. This all happens within acceptable sheeting range in bar (with extension by the trimmer for special conditions).

This other mod with under pulled Z, I don't see even that much use for it. It seems like a silly modification of Malabar.

ljackov
Rare Poster
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:37 am
Kiting since: 2015
Gear: Pansh
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby ljackov » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:14 pm

The 3:2 mixer addition :) Slightly heavier bar, preserved profile changes :)

Note: This has not yet been tested!
4_3.png
Last edited by ljackov on Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kitexpert
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Gear: many kites, also diy
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kitexpert » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:18 pm

ljackov wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:21 pm
"This latter property is not at all a necessity, it is the AoA change which makes kite depowerable/powerable, not a possible camber change. "

I totally agree with this. There are kites in which B and C go more or less at 1/4 and 1/2 of the chord, which means no camber at all with normal 1:2:4 mixer. In most Pansh kites, however, B is at approx. 1/3 of the chord and C is at 2/3 of the chord.
You seem to understand this. But to have a "linear" mixer and "evenly" spaced line rows it does not mean there is "no camber", it means existing camber does not change. I don't know if there is any kite which don't have build in camber, camber in its airfoil. This camber is not only limited to shape of the ribs, it defines also shapes of the upper and lower skins, with canopy curve of course.


So if kite has different camber its whole shape is different. That is why it affects so much how kite behaves and flies. It also explains how limited possibilities there is to make essential changes by tweaking the mixer for different camber. Some changes are possible though and above anything to adjust kite back to its original camber (shape), which can be lost because of the bridle/mixer line changes.

If B and C are further back "linear" mixer under pulls those parts of the wing compared to Z, which is usually pulled straight 1:1. This means kite increases camber during powering up.

ljackov
Rare Poster
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:37 am
Kiting since: 2015
Gear: Pansh
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby ljackov » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:33 pm

"it does not mean there is "no camber", it means existing camber does not change. "

Let's talk about profile, not camber then :) The airplanes have a fixed profile, they usually only change the AoA (except for the ailerons)

kitexpert
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Gear: many kites, also diy
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kitexpert » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:45 pm

foilholio wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:19 pm
kitexpert wrote: I repeat: every foil kite works just fine even if there is 0 camber change during the AoA change.
No. What foil kites work with zero camber change? none I have used. In fact altering them so that the camber is not negative for some of their sheet range severely ruins their usability.
kitexpert wrote: However at some point when possible Z slack is gone it does not mean "some camber kicks in"
It certainly does. Z varying it's tension means camber is changing.
kitexpert wrote: This latter property is not at all a necessity, it is the AoA change which makes kite depowerable/powerable, not a possible camber change.
No it is the varying tension to different parts of the wing that makes it powerable or depowerable. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes it change camber. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes the kite change AoA. It is the position of the kite in the window that affects the majority of the kites AoA. See a kite with fixed bridles can still change AoA. A change in a kites camber can also cause a change in it's AoA. You do know that airfoils have AoA too right?
kitexpert wrote: Yes, if you got some line rows slacking they engage later and affect pulley ratios in that respect, but it is a messy starting point.
But that is how you get the best range of functions from a foil kite. What foil kites don't work like this?
kitexpert wrote: If kite is adjusted like that it is not at all good for how kite flies and respectively if your mod makes camber kick in earlier
But that is how all the foil kites I have flown fly, changing it not to do it means they aren't as good.
kitexpert wrote: But if camber decreases during powering up it is very probably harmful, it doesn't make sense.
But camber does decrease powering up. It is how every foil kite I have used works. Camber decreases then increases.
kitexpert wrote: Heavier bar pressure has some advantages for sure. But if I think for example a Speed 21 which pulls heavy and has already some bar pressure when sheeted in to be used with a pulley bar (or Malabar) I'm afraid it would get too tiring to use. And it is a kite which you could think would benefit most from having higher pulley ratios because of its huge size (chord length).
Well on a redesign adjust the bridle placements so the bar pressure is right. For instance Z can go on the very TE. No need to bring it forward for shorter bar throw and better turn as the mixer does that. On the TE it should give performance benefits, you could also likely run a fifth line to them and flag the kite like that. Move B and C back, which should support the kite better and further reduce bar pressure.
Many foil kites don't have much camber increase. You can see it easily by looking line row locations and knowing the mixer (which is nowadays almost always 1:2:4). But because small camber increase is very easy to do many kites have it. Two liner Speed4dlx does not have much camber increase IIRC, only B line row which is quite near in the center of A and Z, it is pulled 1:2 of course.

Camber should never decrease when powering up and I don't think there is such kite. If there is something is very wrong in the bridle and/or mixer.

When foil kite is fully depowered further back line rows indeed can slack. But when bar is pulled in they should engage quite evenly, if not there is an issue.

Moving bridle line rows back makes bridle support of the wing bad, and it makes absolutely no sense to counter the effect of higher pulley ratio mixer by doing it. Z is already on the TE, there is not much room for move it.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3357
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 204 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby foilholio » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:23 pm

kitexpert wrote: This other mod with under pulled Z, I don't see even that much use for it. It seems like a silly modification of Malabar.
Let this quote go down in history the day the so called kite expert fell on his own sword and exposed what he truly is not much of an expert at all.

Without testing this, without fully understanding it, you call it silly and don't see what use it is. My god you are a disappointment.
ljackov wrote:(except for the ailerons)
flaps, slats and whatever other things they have.
kitexpert wrote: Camber should never decrease when powering up and I don't think there is such kite.
Most kites do this. Decrease then increase. Your "expert" level has obviously not covered it.
kitexpert wrote: If there is something is very wrong in the bridle and/or mixer.
No it is the proper function. Nothing wrong.
kitexpert wrote: When foil kite is fully depowered further back line rows indeed can slack.
You seem to understand the principle but not the effect. If you apply tension to a single bridle or row more than others you get deformation to the kite, that is camber.
kitexpert wrote: Moving bridle line rows back makes bridle support of the wing bad
Not necessarily, on the A15 and speed4dlx it seems fine.
kitexpert wrote: and it makes absolutely no sense to counter the effect of higher pulley ratio mixer by doing it.
Well you are not a very good designer then are you. The new design possibilities are obvious to me. I mean you can already take a kite like the Genesis, add the new mixer and it is turning and feeling like a LEI. Did Flysurfer ever achieve that?
kitexpert wrote: Z is already on the TE, there is not much room for move it.
Depends on the kite but yes there is room. Genesis is one of the very few kites to have it on the very TE. Right on the seam.

ljackov
Rare Poster
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:37 am
Kiting since: 2015
Gear: Pansh
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby ljackov » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:27 pm

Would anyone comment my last post? :) The 3:2 mixer addition?


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests