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Pansh Genesis and some tuning

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foilholio
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby foilholio » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:43 pm

It is interesting. I am trying to think it thru and I don't think it would do anything. If Rear pulley moves down 4, rear gets pulled 8, but C moves down half of that for 4, the resulting pull on the rear is then 4. The same as if you had no pulley at all. I may be wrong... If you put it on B it would increase the total travel 50% I think. Rear pulley moves down 4, makes 8 on rear -2 for B moving down. The ratios are preserved and the bar pressure is less over your mod, but you have another pulley line and pulley. Could be a good mod but I think for new kites your original mod is better. I have doubts on B that this would relaunch well too.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby Simoneterra » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:02 pm

Hi. Following passionately the genesis Castle mod topic I decided to register this forum to bring my experience here. So yes i am Simone from italy and i am new. Back to the topic:
Since i noticed that slack on the C and Z lines of my genesis 6m, i started to think Very much how to solve it,
So reading and reading and researching i got into a kite forum where was a simple solution given.
U can change the castle balance using B line as pivot line and adjusting the length of C or A. IMO the simplest was to shorten A and so i did. Turning the A lines into and around a ring i found out that with 2 turns the A line shortened increased the thension on the back lines, especially C and Z.
3 turns made the A too short and the AoA negative, so the kite frontstalled continuously. But with 2 turns it works quite well. No camber change, just rebalanced the castle.
Now the responsiveness as well the turning speed are increased. Another guy has read about it on YouTube comments and did the same mod with satisfaction. What do u think about it?

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby ljackov » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:30 pm

" If Rear pulley moves down 4, rear gets pulled 8, but C moves down half of that for 4, the resulting pull on the rear is then 4."

Think again :) The C pulley moves 2/3 of the movement of the control line. Note that the line thru the rear pulley is connected to the C line. The question is how strong the Z tension is.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:29 pm

ljackov wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:27 pm
Would anyone comment my last post? :) The 3:2 mixer addition?
I do not think it will work well. It has high chance to be unstable to gusts or turns for example.

Reason is that you have no direct control of neither B,C or Z. Their relative Position will depend on tensions, because of the pulley on rear lines coming from the bar. The "only" exception is on the pulley bar but it works because it relies on the fact that rear line tension is always lower than front line tention : on a pulley (turbo) bar, front lines are always "master" and rear lines "slave" because have far less tension. To illustrate on the pulley bar (just easier to understand), imagine that suddently the tension on rear line becomes higher than front line during your ride : rear line will pull harder, rotate the pulley to free some rear line length, and therefore pull the front lines back through the pulley (since front lines have lower tension, they will not "resist"), => give uncontroled slack to the main depower rope up to the chicken loop => kite will instantly get fully depowered without any pilot command change. => "slack" feeling or worse unstable...
This particular case will not happen on a turbo bar since front line tension remains higher, it was just for understanding of the phenomenon.

But i am affraid that this "float " in the kite can actually happen with your proposal 3:2 mixer : if Z tension increases in a gust (vs B and C), it will pull on B then C more toward the bar = less camber and less AoA (so far less power) without any pilot change in the position of the bar, but only uncontrolable tension variations.

Now this opens one comment on the below quote :
foilholio wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:19 pm
kitexpert wrote: This latter property is not at all a necessity, it is the AoA change which makes kite depowerable/powerable, not a possible camber change.
No it is the varying tension to different parts of the wing that makes it powerable or depowerable. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes it change camber. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes the kite change AoA.
No , on a standard foil kite, camber is not a matter of tension. It is a matter of geometry assuming rigid chords: profile and camber variation is "imposed" geometrically, and MUST be independant on tension in the briddles. Any variation in tension (due to gust, turbulence, turns against the canopy) should bot affect the profile . Other wise kite stability / control will suffer. Geometry shall on the contrary remain stable in all range of tensions in briddles.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kitexpert » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:12 pm

If you under pull Z it is very much same if you over pull B-C. Usually this happens when mixer pulley lines (FS spare part line) shrinks considerably, up to 10%. Then kite becomes slow and backstally, it flies really bad. If Malabar with its stronger effect is modified to same direction (by under pulling Z) I don't see why it would be any better. However strong effect of these mods may hide issues and when starting point is so lame it very well can be an improvement.

Two liner is possible but most kites are still three liners. High AR makes it probably easier because chord is then shorter. If you look Speed4dlx wingtips you see a fold there when you sheet in, one line row can't unfortunately support it well enough. This problem becomes even more evident when kite is used and inner pressure gets worse. Almost all Speed4dlx''s suffer wingtip problems, also mine.

If some kite really has camber decrease then increase during powering up it is because Z is too loose or it is of insignificant scale. In any case it is not a useful property for kite.

Calling any deformation of kite "camber" is too unclear, too far away what is practical in kites. All kites have a build in camber, the real camber which defines quite a lot how kite behaves and to which kite shape is designed and fabricated. Then when kite is powered/depowered this build in camber may or may not change, depending how it is designed to work (bridle locations, mixer pulley ratios).

Changing camber by tweaking the mixer - having some camber preset - can never be more than fine tuning. Real changes in camber require different kite shape, if this is tried to be achieved by tweaking kite will distort itself. Some parts of it lack fabric and some parts have too much, result is not at all smooth wing. However foil kite is soft and not very smooth from the beginning so some tweaking can be useful, having more pros than cons.

Kite designer always tries very hard to find suitable airfoil with right amount of camber to make kite perform well but also to have enough stability. It is definitely one of the most critical choices in design process.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby foilholio » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:01 am

Simoneterra wrote: Hi. Following passionately the genesis Castle mod topic I decided to register this forum to bring my experience here. So yes i am Simone from italy and i am new. Back to the topic:
Since i noticed that slack on the C and Z lines of my genesis 6m, i started to think Very much how to solve it,
So reading and reading and researching i got into a kite forum where was a simple solution given.
U can change the castle balance using B line as pivot line and adjusting the length of C or A. IMO the simplest was to shorten A and so i did. Turning the A lines into and around a ring i found out that with 2 turns the A line shortened increased the thension on the back lines, especially C and Z.
3 turns made the A too short and the AoA negative, so the kite frontstalled continuously. But with 2 turns it works quite well. No camber change, just rebalanced the castle.
Now the responsiveness as well the turning speed are increased. Another guy has read about it on YouTube comments and did the same mod with satisfaction. What do u think about it?
I have a little trouble with some of your language. Maybe you are using google translate? Castle=Mixer?

If Z and C are too slack usually you would either pull the bar in or adjust the line trim. Otherwise you would make Z and C shorter.

I tend to avoid adjusting A or B because they alter the minimum AoA or depower limit as you found out. That is unless you desire to change that, in which case I would adjust B and with it also C and Z to maintain their ratios. You can also adjust the pulley line instead.

You can not make a single change to either A or B or C or Z without changing camber. Only by changing multiple of them in ratio would you maintain the camber.
ljackov wrote: " If Rear pulley moves down 4, rear gets pulled 8, but C moves down half of that for 4, the resulting pull on the rear is then 4."

Think again :) The C pulley moves 2/3 of the movement of the control line. Note that the line thru the rear pulley is connected to the C line. The question is how strong the Z tension is.


Well I was not 100% sure how it would work. There is the strong possibility Z and C get pulled in unison, giving you more movement of C but then maybe the ratio is not 421.
Regis-de-giens wrote: No , on a standard foil kite, camber is not a matter of tension.
It certainly is, foil kites are flexible. You can observe the deformations, though downward deformations of reduced camber are hard by yourself.
Regis-de-giens wrote:It is a matter of geometry assuming rigid chords
Assuming a foil kite is rigid is a mistake. They have some rigidity but remain flexible.
Regis-de-giens wrote: profile and camber variation is "imposed" geometrically, and MUST be independant on tension in the briddles. Any variation in tension (due to gust, turbulence, turns against the canopy) should bot affect the profile . Other wise kite stability / control will suffer. Geometry shall on the contrary remain stable in all range of tensions in briddles.
Ok I get what you are thinking. The problem with a pure geometric model is the kites shape changes with tension and how it is applied. You do have the sewn shape but depending how the bridles are things change. The tension model is the reality of the kite though. You vary tension then also geometry can change. More tension on B can slacken C. If pulling one bridle then the others change. Foil kites because they have not much rigidity are difficult to design for. Unlike LEI ,which I think what kitexpert is really an expert in, you can not just force things more.
kitexpert wrote: If you look Speed4dlx wingtips you see a fold there when you sheet in, one line row can't unfortunately support it well enough. This problem becomes even more evident when kite is used and inner pressure gets worse. Almost all Speed4dlx''s suffer wingtip problems, also mine.
Oh dear big deal the wing tips fold. I mean Z should really have less tension there to improve the L/D.
kitexpert wrote: If some kite really has camber decrease then increase during powering up it is because Z is too loose or it is of insignificant scale.
Wrong No.
kitexpert wrote:In any case it is not a useful property for kite.
Wrong again. It is very useful. Maybe stick to designing LEIs.
kitexpert wrote:Calling any deformation of kite "camber" is too unclear
What are changes to the shape then? As described on the airfoil. Curves or folds down in say the front third, middle, rear third and then rear? What are those changes called again? On a airfoil or wing? The word starts with a C I think. Maybe you can help me, I have forgotten.

No wonder you struggle with these things. You can't even a hold a rigid use of the words.
kitexpert wrote: Then when kite is powered/depowered this build in camber may or may not change, depending how it is designed to work (bridle locations, mixer pulley ratios).
Great to explain this for the 100th time, we are talking not usually about designing kites but kites already designed. I personally have not seen depowerable kites that do not change camber.
kitexpert wrote: Changing camber by tweaking the mixer - having some camber preset - can never be more than fine tuning.
It can do far more than just "fine tuning"
kitexpert wrote:Real changes in camber require different kite shape
The amount that camber gets ramped into a kite from a mixer would never work as a sewn shape. The kite would just collapse.
kitexpert wrote: if this is tried to be achieved by tweaking kite will distort itself
So? and it is tried and done and it does distort the kite and the kite is better for it. How many years now and you can't still grasp variable camber? Stick to LEIs.
kitexpert wrote: Some parts of it lack fabric and some parts have too much, result is not at all smooth wing
So? You don't seem to mind that big lump on LEIs. I would say you would have been desiring it to be bigger out of some strange belief it was an airfoil. What is a small fold in the fabric in comparison. Probably many things I am sure when your foundational understanding of aerodynamics is wrong.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:54 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:29 pm
foilholio wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:19 pm
kitexpert wrote: This latter property is not at all a necessity, it is the AoA change which makes kite depowerable/powerable, not a possible camber change.
No it is the varying tension to different parts of the wing that makes it powerable or depowerable. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes it change camber. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes the kite change AoA.
No , on a standard foil kite, camber is not a matter of tension. It is a matter of geometry assuming rigid chords: profile and camber variation is "imposed" geometrically, and MUST be independant on tension in the briddles. Any variation in tension (due to gust, turbulence, turns against the canopy) should bot affect the profile . Other wise kite stability / control will suffer. Geometry shall on the contrary remain stable in all range of tensions in briddles.
I'm with foilholio on this one :cheers:
BandC-CamberChanges.gif
BandC-CamberChanges.gif (150.18 KiB) Viewed 129 times

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby NorthernKitesAus » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:41 am

I must be lucky. My Pansh Genesis 2019 12m is perfect. Unless I see a video showing the before and after of changing the bridles/mixer on the Genesis, I don't see the point. If anything mine probably needs less power, because it's very powerful when looping and has to have long (>24m) lines for it to loop entirely in 17-22knots. Not a kite I would do a mega loop on, but hey if I can get it to look within a 7-10metre diameter, that would be awesome.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:58 am

NorthernKitesAus wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:41 am
I must be lucky. My Pansh Genesis 2019 12m is perfect. Unless I see a video showing the before and after of changing the bridles/mixer on the Genesis, I don't see the point. If anything mine probably needs less power, because it's very powerful when looping and has to have long (>24m) lines for it to loop entirely in 17-22knots. Not a kite I would do a mega loop on, but hey if I can get it to look within a 7-10metre diameter, that would be awesome.
The 10m also before this mod was grunty now the bar throw has far more dpower and control . Definitely try it. From unusable to very usable for the wife.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby kitexpert » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:40 am

PugetSoundKiter wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:54 am
Regis-de-giens wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:29 pm
foilholio wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:19 pm


No it is the varying tension to different parts of the wing that makes it powerable or depowerable. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes it change camber. It is the variable tension to different parts of the wing that makes the kite change AoA.
No , on a standard foil kite, camber is not a matter of tension. It is a matter of geometry assuming rigid chords: profile and camber variation is "imposed" geometrically, and MUST be independant on tension in the briddles. Any variation in tension (due to gust, turbulence, turns against the canopy) should bot affect the profile . Other wise kite stability / control will suffer. Geometry shall on the contrary remain stable in all range of tensions in briddles.
I'm with foilholio on this one :cheers:
BandC-CamberChanges.gif
Your animation does exactly what I've been warning about here, it messes up AoA change and camber change to each other as a mechanism and also by their scale (and importance).

I repeat: it is mostly AoA (change) which defines how much or little kite pulls. Practically all kites have some camber built in, then it depends some factors if this camber slightly changes when AoA changes. Usually it increases a bit when AoA increases because it gives more lift when it is needed and also resists back stall. This effect is achieved by bridle/mixer design and it distorts kite shape a bit but it doesn't matter because getting more lift is more important than increased drag.


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