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Pansh Genesis and some tuning

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S2000kitesurfer
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:45 am

I've just talked to my friend and The kite does relaunch from the water with this modification 👍👍👍😍

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby foilholio » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:55 pm

Interesting. If reverse launching works then that is good. The reason it wouldn't have worked would be because you couldn't get enough tension onto the rear of the kite, tension becomes divided between B and Z. If relaunch is still good this modification should work very well on the A15 and should then also work on most other foils. I will test it out.

It is actually quite exciting given the possible change to the kite. The shorter throw is the big one, giving more more turn and more response. The other thing is the ratio becomes 321 which is better for performance. I should be able to take my A15 mod to 1 pulley on B with this. It could make the Pyscho4 turn faster than any LEI.

Looking at how you have done the mod it is a quite smart use of the lines. I would change connecting everything through the pulley's loop though as that could break.

If any one wants to try he has doubled over the Z main to connect the C main and rear line. C Pulley is also connected there. C pulley line connects to the Z bridles through the C pulley onto either the B bridles or larks above the B main/bridle join.

You might also want to try disconnecting the Z tip bridle or removing it to get some more performance and better relaunch.

S2000kitesurfer
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:21 pm

foilholio wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:55 pm
Interesting. If reverse launching works then that is good. The reason it wouldn't have worked would be because you couldn't get enough tension onto the rear of the kite, tension becomes divided between B and Z. If relaunch is still good this modification should work very well on the A15 and should then also work on most other foils. I will test it out.

It is actually quite exciting given the possible change to the kite. The shorter throw is the big one, giving more more turn and more response. The other thing is the ratio becomes 321 which is better for performance. I should be able to take my A15 mod to 1 pulley on B with this. It could make the Pyscho4 turn faster than any LEI.

Looking at how you have done the mod it is a quite smart use of the lines. I would change connecting everything through the pulley's loop though as that could break.

If any one wants to try he has doubled over the Z main to connect the C main and rear line. C Pulley is also connected there. C pulley line connects to the Z bridles through the C pulley onto either the B bridles or larks above the B main/bridle join.

You might also want to try disconnecting the Z tip bridle or removing it to get some more performance and better relaunch.
Very excited about trying the kite foiling.
Before the modification there was about 8 inches of usable bar throw.Now the feeling is comparable to a normal tube kite with slightly heavy bar pressure.
£143 delivered 10m amazing value for money.
Yes I was looking at reinforcing the connections 😀.
And yes you are 100% correct reversing is slower but functions like reversing a tube from the water.So the only problem I foresee would be really really light conditions.But that would be below the target wind im aiming for with the wife 6 minimum 15 max on her foil.
IMO the 30%ish more depower could turn this kite into a floating jump machine.
Add me as a friend on FB Lee Todd.
I could do with your superior foil knowledge 👍👍👍.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:48 pm

I have some (disruptive) comments here ; based on my knowledge of mixers changes but not tested this one I must admit, so as a base of discussion...

1- compared to the Malabar mixer I made (I found it and implemented first I think just for ego reward :cool2: ), while I gave this name Malabar because more efficient but requires more muscles in the arms) : Malabar is based on a connection of Cpulley line directly on A lines and not B lines ; this gives even more Z throw for same bar pull, and maintain the original profile of the kite while sheeting in. IMO (except for relaunch maybe) it is better.

2- this leads to indeed a 1:2:3 speed system (while the true Malabar maintains the 1:2:4 "standard" mixer ; personally I do not see advantages for that (theoretically again) : globally , compared to a "standard " foil kite, this means that it will pull more on B and C vs other kites WHEN YOU SHEET IN ; we cannot summarize by more or less performance : but rather that performance ( in the l/D ratio meaning of course) will depend on bar throw when sheet in or sheet out. For example, sheet-in = less (relative) camber ; sheet out = more (relative) camber ; this means less stability at zenith sheet-out (it is a shame), more power sheet-out but less sheet in (it is a shame); overall I think it is in detriment of the wind range and front stall stability ; I also think that it could lead to less agility (slower turn) but to be confirmed (at least less camber is less agile)

3- L/D ratio should be (a bit) more regular and less depending on bar throw (meaning similar performance in variable winds) ; but not sure who really cares that and not even sure it really happened ( will depend on kite design and your choice for the initial camber).

So, I must say that I do not trust a lot in this mod for the majority of kites (and certainly not for very light wind where you look for high camber but limited by stability)

... my 2 cents guess ...

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby hongchew » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:55 pm

Do update us foilholio on what you find

S2000kitesurfer
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:06 pm

I've just ordered a 4/6m 2x kites £175 .
They will also be getting the mod 🙋.
That means I will have 4/6/10 Genesis
8/10 aurora2 plus 12m soul. At 65kgs
4 to 40 knots foiling for days 😋🤣.

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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby foilholio » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:53 pm

So I tested it out on the older 6m Genesis in about 10-15 knots of wind on land. Relaunch works, in fact in some ways relaunch is actually better. One line relaunch works really good. Relaunch is quite dependent on how short you make Z. With it quite short it behaves much like without the mod, with it adjusted about right relaunch is fine, with it too long it is not the best but still works.

Bar pressure is quite high, almost double, much like LEIs. I don't think everyone is going to like it for that.

Bar travel is greatly reduced. The same to turn the kite, input is greatly reduced. Turning is tight and quite responsive, not as responsive as a LEI but I think the tightness is similar.

The kite losses some ability to back stall. It can't do propeller turns as well. It holds more power backstall landing. It also lost the ability to invert the TE. So it would sit on the ground easier, as you just had to tension the rear lines. The same the TE won't collapse when reversing, which would be why it holds more power.

Doing the mod was a little time consuming because I replicated my mixer settings on it. The mixer test with it requires tension on A,B and Z simultaneously to work. It was a little frustrating, but then my first time with it. I wanted to see how the mod changed my profile. As expected it drove things to have less camber. The settings like that were no good. I say that your existing mixer settings have little to no relevance on this mod, so it would be better to adjust things out independently. Recording them though could be good, as a hint or if you want to switch back. I ended up with a slightly shorter depower limit, B and C untouched and Z a bit shorter. I would play with C but I didn't have the time. Flight behavior with Z quite short is really really bad with this mod.

Overall it is an extremely promising mod. On a kite like the A15 it is setup about perfect for this so bar pressure on that should be much better, relaunch and backstall better too. It is similar like with the diablo line that the further back C,B and Z are the better or less negatives this will likely have. It opens new design possibilities. I am quite amazed I missed this testing the malabar and diablo line, it seems an obvious variation. The question now what to call it? Hypermixer? Plaidmixer?

I will try this out on the Psycho4 and A15, and give it some good time on the water, for a final verdict.

I took Z on the tip off the Genesis with the mod and it actually turned faster ...
S2000kitesurfer wrote: I've just ordered a 4/6m 2x kites £175 .
They will also be getting the mod 🙋.
That means I will have 4/6/10 Genesis
8/10 aurora2 plus 12m soul. At 65kgs
4 to 40 knots foiling for days 😋🤣.
4m I think would be too big for foiling in 40knots at your weight, 2m might be more appropriate, 3m definitely.
Regis-de-giens wrote: I found it and implemented first I think just for ego reward :cool2:
You certainly do, I would guess you helped inspire this?
Regis-de-giens wrote: 2- this leads to indeed a 1:2:3 speed system (while the true Malabar maintains the 1:2:4 "standard" mixer ; personally I do not see advantages for that (theoretically again) : globally , compared to a "standard " foil kite, this means that it will pull more on B and C vs other kites WHEN YOU SHEET IN ; we cannot summarize by more or less performance : but rather that performance ( in the l/D ratio meaning of course)
Less camber is usually better L/D. Needless to say it needs to be tested.
Regis-de-giens wrote: For example, sheet-in = less (relative) camber ; sheet out = more (relative) camber ; this means less stability at zenith sheet-out (it is a shame)
It will only have less stability if you choose to have the same camber sheeted in. So you will lose something, either camber or stability.
Regis-de-giens wrote: overall I think it is in detriment of the wind range and front stall stability
Maybe, it needs to be tested. It is not a massive change in camber.
Regis-de-giens wrote: I also think that it could lead to less agility (slower turn) but to be confirmed (at least less camber is less agile)
Well it is not less agile than a standard mixer. For every 4bar a standard mixer moves Z4 C2 B1, this does Z6 C4 B2. There is just so much more movement that a comparison on agility is not fair to the standard mixer. There is though a delay caused by the extra force required at the bar. More muscles would solve that :-).
Regis-de-giens wrote: So, I must say that I do not trust a lot in this mod for the majority of kites (and certainly not for very light wind where you look for high camber but limited by stability)
Yes you have to trade camber for some stability with this mod but I think it is acceptable for people. I think it will work on most current kites. I have actually given up on high camber in all winds. Going upwind best is the most important thing. High camber makes little difference for the best power, because you get that flying the kite fastest at low AoA. The high camber comes on at higher AoA so is less usable flying the kite fast. I really wish kites generally had faster airfoils on them, as in thinner.
S2000kitesurfer wrote: Before the modification there was about 8 inches of usable bar throw.
Weird, bar travel got less for me after the mod.
S2000kitesurfer wrote: So the only problem I foresee would be really really light conditions.But that would be below the target wind im aiming for with the wife 6 minimum 15 max on her foil.
I am keen to try it in light wind.
S2000kitesurfer wrote: IMO the 30%ish more depower could turn this kite into a floating jump machine.
The kite shouldn't have much more depower. The depower limit stays much the same, but you get a little more taking the pulley off the end of the B pulley line which makes it longer. It would be more that you can depower it with less bar travel or trim now. You can alter the mixer to get some more depower. My Genesis has a bit of a tendency to invert with too much depower so I will likely reduce it.
S2000kitesurfer wrote:Add me as a friend on FB Lee Todd.
Just message me here or preferably ask in a thread or post.
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ljackov
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby ljackov » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:54 pm

Hi there :)

It was me who made Lee do the mod, as I've done this on my A15s (9, 12, 15) and my Genesis 6m.

As for the camber loss, it is true that the new mod makes the mixer 1:2:3 as opposed to the original 1:2:4. However, with fully sheeted-in bar, the A, B,C and Z are the same as with the original mixer, i.e. the camber there is the same. When depowered both A15 and Genesis have slack on the Z line, i.e. in low AoAs there is no tension on the Z line, which means the two mixers behave identically. So there would be camber difference only between,say, bar half-sheeted-in and bar fully-sheeted in, introducing additional camber a bit earlier and a bit slower than with the original mixer.

As for the additional depower, the kite indeed has twice the normal depower (without trimming the front lines).

Additional advantage of the heavy bar is that the kite needs a lot more tension on the control lines to change the AoA which makes it much less prone to the wind drift on the control lines. This in turn makes the kite fly better/higher in low wind.
Last edited by ljackov on Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby ljackov » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:25 pm

Here's a link to my original article :)

I came up with this myself, i.e. reinvented the hot water to some point as it turns out. Originally I used to connect the Z to the A line thru the C-pulley, however the reverse launch and back stall was not possible. Then I tried connecting it to the B line and it was much, much better :)


No cutting required for A15 9, 12, 15m and Genesis 6 and 10m :)

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S2000kitesurfer
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Re: Pansh Genesis and some tuning

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:36 pm

Right my 10m review with the foil😍.
Pansh Genesis 10m Hydrofoiling Simple Bridle Mod. £143 delivered.
65kg Gong M foil. 24m lines 60cm bar . Min 5 knots max 10 at the beginning.
At the end forgive my terrible foiling on the wife's foil (set-up no front foot pressure) 🤣 Wind increased to gusting 14 knots
Twice the turning speed, feels like twice the depower. Absolutely epic 😍😍😍😍.
More information on the pansh FB group . All beer money to Luchezar Jackov for his 10 minute line modification no cutting required 😍.
Useable wind IMO 7 to 20 knots there's so much depower it's unbelievable.
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