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Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

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kitexpert
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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby kitexpert » Tue May 04, 2021 9:55 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:53 am



I dont agree!

We dont know what Kitemanmuc (the OP) is talking about, when "light".

If a TT it could be 12-13 knots, if a hydrofoil it could be 6-7 knots.

I was thinking about the latter, as otherwise it is not really light wind...

On a hydrofoil it does not make sense to say you should only pull the trim strap to prevent over powering, if out in wind where it is difficult to avoid backstalling, nor to edge very hard.
On the contrary - you should depower a bit, to get more speed thus more power, in lightwind foil conditions.

Once up and going fast getting more apparent wind, you can power up again if you like yes, but does not work for start power, as you kill the kite :naughty:

8) Peter
Ok I guess we had different definitions for light wind and also used equipment. If you have short arms or some other reason not be able to push bar out you can pull trimmer in. Some have a bit shorter back lines - even on purpose or shrunk - then you can compensate it using trimmer.

I don't get much that back stall thing, if you know how to fly kite what's the problem? And if wind is so weak kite is unable to fly, do something else.

Last winter my weakest session was 4-5kn (on nearby weather station at 10m height) on 17m kite. Of course it was a struggle and didn't make much sense. I dropped my kite once and I had to go and turn it LE up for relaunch (it stayed there over 2m high wall without any difficulty, on surface it was about 2kn). (Btw I consider LEI kite easier to relaunch in extreme low wind than foil kite because it stays up and doesn't stick to surface irregularities). Then I waited for wind for about 15min and was able to come back. I got 10km and top speed a bit over 20kmh. Challenge wasn't back stalling kite but to be able to keep moving and returning back. Every time you have to loop you lose some ground.

Another light wind one was more usual 6-8-10kn, then I reached 49kmh speed which is decent for those conditions. That session was not that easy physically, you have to edge hard to get even that high speed. With some race kite I could have reached perhaps 55kmh, but it would have been as hard work (even though race kites pull more forward than LEI's).

If you want to go fast (and you do because it makes low wind sessions somehow meaningful) you have to push hard. Pulling trimmer in is quite a lot giving up because then you lose max power

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby artificialname » Sat May 08, 2021 11:09 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 2:34 pm
artificialname wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:23 pm
Matteo V, can you recommend an online resource for an experienced LEI kiter who is starting out on foils? Your practical way of stating things - eg "don't sheet all the way in" is really usefull. Is there something like a list of principles or exercises to build up foil kite skills?
Best online resource would be ebay for a used HQ Apex open cell foil kite in 3, 3.5, or 5.5 (7.5 &up are pretty worthless for teaching).

This is one of the most terrible kites made, and has essentially not improved since V2. If you put some serious time flying this kite on land in less than 10knots, you will not only begin to understand foil kites, but also inflatables. While you think you are knowledgeable on inflatables now, the Apex will teach you how all depower kites really work.


To your question - I and others can give you advice here on this forum till our fingers are bleeding. We could say stuff like "let the kite breathe". But what the heck does that mean??? Well, it's our best attempt at conveying a feeling for the controls on a kite, though it falls flat on its face for the purpose of usefulness. You need experience. No academic tutelage can substitute for that.
Thank You Matteo. great advice. I will practice! What do you think of the Pansh Genesis? I don't expect it to compete with a kite that is 10x its price, but do you have any useful experience with it? Is it good to learn on?
https://www.panshkite.com/index.php?gOo ... oductname=

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby artificialname » Sat May 08, 2021 11:13 pm

Herman wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 10:26 am
From a newbies perspective I would say that looking for a trick to prevent backstall is the wrong approach. Much better to embrace it and practice using it. ...
Perhaps the greatest use of a backstally setting for me is simply being able to check the kite as it flys accross the window, important to me in so many ways.

PS If you have not mastered recovering backstalls by yanking on front lines..........
What do you "use" back stall for? launching and landing, obviously, but what else? what do you mean by "check the kite as it flys across the window".

And as for "yanking on front lines"...yeah - thats great advice. Not obvious at all to a newbie!

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Herman » Sat May 08, 2021 11:41 pm

It appears you did not like my comment on front line pulling and so I will say no more other than trim it out if you don’t like backstall.

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Matteo V » Sun May 09, 2021 12:00 am

artificialname wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:09 pm
[What do you think of the Pansh Genesis? I don't expect it to compete with a kite that is 10x its price, but do you have any useful experience with it? Is it good to learn on?
https://www.panshkite.com/index.php?gOo ... oductname=
There are some happy owners of those. I'd love to have one in 16m, and see how it compares to my hq matrixx v1's.

But I can say I've had enough experience with any pansh thats recent enough to give you any advice on other than the A15. However for the price, even if it's a bad kite, it'll be a cheap lesson in the smaller sizes.

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Matteo V » Sun May 09, 2021 12:29 am

kitexpert wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:55 pm
I don't get much that back stall thing, if you know how to fly kite what's the problem? And if wind is so weak kite is unable to fly, do something else.
Actually using backstall is definetly an individual thing.

I do it because it allows you to depower the kite into a more powerful position in the window. That may not make sense, but let me give it a go at explaining.

Not using backstall
So when you are riding along and dont want to use backstall, you get a bit overpowered, and so you sheet out a bit and try not to turn or redirect the kite, right? This gives the kite only one place to go in the window - to the closest edge of the window.

Actually using backstall
But what if you could depower the kite AND send the kite deeper into the window, and even redirect or loop it without getting any unwanted power? Well if you use backstall, you can. And think about how this sets you up for your next move.... your kite is now in a powerful position in the window, but it doesnt have much power unless you sheet it out. That's a real game changer, especially in light to medium winds that your average kiter doesn't think you can do much with.

Also with your kite stalled out in the back of the window, you can cut towards your kite without your kite overshooting you if you time depowering right. If the kite was at the edge of the window, you would need to redirect it, then wait for it to get into a deeper position of the window. To me, backstalling actually cuts the time it takes to do most turns or repositioning by 4 times. And the explosion of power you get on demand magnifies the regular rollercoaster of mow the lawn kiteboarding by orders of magnitude.


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