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Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

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TheRussian
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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby TheRussian » Thu May 04, 2017 7:58 pm

windrider1 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 5:02 pm
if ure coming from a lei its a little different skill to a fly. . 1st thing i tell folks is to ease up on the bar grip. let the kite breathe and accelerate through the wind to generate usuable power. here is an inportant fact about foil kites -because of its bridle connection points they can go from completely depowered to fully powered to stall.. where as most lei its very hard to stall them. this can happen depending on how u trim your kite.
i never ride my foils with the trim strap on full. u adjust a foil based on the concept that when u pull in the bar the kite does not back dwn out of the sky while riding with bar pulled in. and this concept is true no matter the wind speed but usually requiring a little more depowering in very light winds. its as simple as that. generallly on the upstroke of a foil kite u also need to u easy the bar out so the kite accelerates through the window and generates max power.
Spot on advice :thumb:

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby artificialname » Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:23 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 2:53 pm
Love the acedemics. That is usually my realm. But the foil heads on this forum are out of my league. They are right, but just out of my league.

Keep it simple. The one thing you should get from the video above is that this guy is not sheeting all the way in. Even when he needs the most power. Sweet spot, sweet spot, sweet spot. Or rather, feel the power increase as you sheet out! Counter intuitive, but the reality none the less in light winds. Oh, and do sheet in a bit once the kite starts moving - just a bit.

Don't fill your head with the academics too much, fill your head with the experience to build instinct so you do not have to think about power, stall, and AOA. Save conscious thought for safety considerations.

The best way to do this for snow, is to get out on a grass field and fly in 0-4knt. Some days you will fail, but some you will gain more experience than your best day on the snow. Go out in 2-6knt in the water somewhere you can touch, but also float by pulling your legs up. You will have lots of kite drying sessions, but you will figure out the sweet spot with enough times out. Once is not enough in no go conditions (too light).
Matteo V, can you recommend an online resource for an experienced LEI kiter who is starting out on foils? Your practical way of stating things - eg "don't sheet all the way in" is really usefull. Is there something like a list of principles or exercises to build up foil kite skills?

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat May 01, 2021 9:44 pm

Pretty simple - as said, let the kite breathe, sheet it out often at the correct time :thumb:

I dont recommend trimming so it wont stall, sheeted all the way in - then you wont learn anything, and can only use a fraction of the kites potential.

Just remember to sheet out, and never "ride" with bar all the way in - mostly used for backing it deliberately if too low at the side, or when self landing.

The lighter the wind, the more you should depower on the trim strap, for beginners a bit contradictory, but the way it works.

Are you riding hydrofoils or?

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Matteo V » Sun May 02, 2021 2:34 pm

artificialname wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:23 pm
Matteo V, can you recommend an online resource for an experienced LEI kiter who is starting out on foils? Your practical way of stating things - eg "don't sheet all the way in" is really usefull. Is there something like a list of principles or exercises to build up foil kite skills?
Best online resource would be ebay for a used HQ Apex open cell foil kite in 3, 3.5, or 5.5 (7.5 &up are pretty worthless for teaching).

This is one of the most terrible kites made, and has essentially not improved since V2. If you put some serious time flying this kite on land in less than 10knots, you will not only begin to understand foil kites, but also inflatables. While you think you are knowledgeable on inflatables now, the Apex will teach you how all depower kites really work.


To your question - I and others can give you advice here on this forum till our fingers are bleeding. We could say stuff like "let the kite breathe". But what the heck does that mean??? Well, it's our best attempt at conveying a feeling for the controls on a kite, though it falls flat on its face for the purpose of usefulness. You need experience. No academic tutelage can substitute for that.
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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby apollo4000 » Mon May 03, 2021 7:06 am

Pump me up wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 12:19 pm
Ram air kites are highly prone to stalling. Below are some of the reasons for this problem, along with helpful suggestions on how to deal with the stalling issue:
After several weeks of use, ram air bridles typically stretch and deform, further compromising aerodynamic performance: http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 58&start=0
Kamikuza wrote:Have you done a mixer test and checked your SPL length? SPL = spare parts line = the bright yellow lines that go through the pulleys... they can shrink A LOT and bork up the handling…
joffaburger wrote:Moved to a foil kite 5 years ago (flysurfer pulse 10m)... I found after 6-9 months that the RAM started performing very poorly especially in gusty conditions I assume this was due to bridle stretching, I did manage to trim the bridle regularly to what I thought was intended spec however as already stated these are complicated bridles with many attachment points and I'm not sure if I did a perfect job! In the end I couldn't get the kite to feel anywhere near how it performed during the first 3 - 6 months of it's life. I think the kite and the bridles became quickly blown out...The kite was expensive and an attempt to resell the kite at half its purchase price failed...
gmb13 wrote:
plummet wrote:Hey bro's. I'd like to make my speed 3 less stally. Apart from resetting the mixer what else do you recommend?
Is it simply a matter of lengthening the rearlines or shortening the front?
Should I lengthen the Z line abit?
I am assuming a few things:
1) You have reset the mixer to 0
2) You have compensated for Back line shrinkage by shortening your front lines using the Black Line above the adjuster. Front and Back lines should be the same length when the Adjuster is fully open and the bar is pulled all the way down to the chicken loop. Best to tie up the end of the lines to a tree or other solid stationary object to test this.
So. If the kite is still to backstally, try lengthening C. B will adjust itself harmonically by itself. This will sacrifice a bit of stability, but will give you less backstall. Lengthing Z will just make the kite turn slower and will also reduce the Low end of the kite.
Gunnar
For the complete discussion on the diabolical problems associated with "resetting the mixer", "compensating for line shrinkage", "adjusting the adjuster", adjusting lines "C", "B", & "Z", & trying to stop RAM AIRS from back stalling, check out: http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 91#p778491

Alternatively, you could just trade-in your flying sleeping bag for an inflatable and save yourself the trouble.
:pump:
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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Matteo V » Mon May 03, 2021 8:17 pm

apollo4000 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:06 am
Don't think I've ever been thanked. So what??




Oops, that makes me lower than Pumpy???? Well, somebody's gotta set the bar low....

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby kitexpert » Mon May 03, 2021 9:33 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 9:44 pm

The lighter the wind, the more you should depower on the trim strap, for beginners a bit contradictory, but the way it works.

That is a bit too much. Actually you have to be alert to take that power kite occasionally gives you, also in lightest of winds. Paradoxically many kiters are not competitive in light wind riding because they are over powered, unable to receive fully the power kite gives when it is dived and looped aggressively. When kite gives that power spike you must edge very hard to convert that pull to speed, then kite gives you a bit more power and you keep on doing same...

So if trim strap should be pulled in it shouldn't be done to avoid kite back stalling but to prevent over powering. However then you are just too weak and you will not benefit your light wind kite power fully. Possibly smaller kite would work (nearly) as well

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue May 04, 2021 7:53 am

kitexpert wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:33 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 9:44 pm

The lighter the wind, the more you should depower on the trim strap, for beginners a bit contradictory, but the way it works.

That is a bit too much. Actually you have to be alert to take that power kite occasionally gives you, also in lightest of winds. Paradoxically many kiters are not competitive in light wind riding because they are over powered, unable to receive fully the power kite gives when it is dived and looped aggressively. When kite gives that power spike you must edge very hard to convert that pull to speed, then kite gives you a bit more power and you keep on doing same...

So if trim strap should be pulled in it shouldn't be done to avoid kite back stalling but to prevent over powering. However then you are just too weak and you will not benefit your light wind kite power fully. Possibly smaller kite would work (nearly) as well

I dont agree!

We dont know what Kitemanmuc (the OP) is talking about, when "light".

If a TT it could be 12-13 knots, if a hydrofoil it could be 6-7 knots.

I was thinking about the latter, as otherwise it is not really light wind...

On a hydrofoil it does not make sense to say you should only pull the trim strap to prevent over powering, if out in wind where it is difficult to avoid backstalling, nor to edge very hard.
On the contrary - you should depower a bit, to get more speed thus more power, in lightwind foil conditions.

Once up and going fast getting more apparent wind, you can power up again if you like yes, but does not work for start power, as you kill the kite :naughty:

8) Peter

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Herman » Tue May 04, 2021 10:26 am

I am with Peter regarding trimming in to avoid backstall when required. For me the most obvious time I do this is when flying my small Kahoona in gusty winds with big lulls and awkward sea state. I would love to still be able to use backstall in these conditions so that I know I was using the full sheeting range but without Spider-Man’s balance and reflexes I simply can’t do it and stay in control. Obviously newbies would get this feeling well before the conditions get this demanding.

From a newbies perspective I would say that looking for a trick to prevent backstall is the wrong approach. Much better to embrace it and practice using it. But if the conditions become too difficult or you want to start practicing something where you want to be able to sheet all in without stalling, eg early jumping or loops, there is nothing wrong with pulling in some trim even if the wind is light. Also, it is sensible to set the kite to less backstall if there are sudden lulls which cause balance issues.

Perhaps the greatest use of a backstally setting for me is simply being able to check the kite as it flys accross the window, important to me in so many ways.

PS If you have not mastered recovering backstalls by yanking on front lines..........

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Herman » Tue May 04, 2021 11:47 am

Interestingly I don’t feel that there is such a big difference between LEI and foils. That is probably because I use backstall on a regular basis with LEI. Possibly the difference is that you can, and many do, operate LEIs without using backstall; where as backstall is an essential requirement for operating foils - landing, launching etc.

If you want to move from LEI to foil it might be worth exploring the use of backstall with your LEI first. Obviously start in the lower end of the kites wind range in easy conditions etc
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