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Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

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kitexpert
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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby kitexpert » Tue May 04, 2021 9:55 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:53 am



I dont agree!

We dont know what Kitemanmuc (the OP) is talking about, when "light".

If a TT it could be 12-13 knots, if a hydrofoil it could be 6-7 knots.

I was thinking about the latter, as otherwise it is not really light wind...

On a hydrofoil it does not make sense to say you should only pull the trim strap to prevent over powering, if out in wind where it is difficult to avoid backstalling, nor to edge very hard.
On the contrary - you should depower a bit, to get more speed thus more power, in lightwind foil conditions.

Once up and going fast getting more apparent wind, you can power up again if you like yes, but does not work for start power, as you kill the kite :naughty:

8) Peter
Ok I guess we had different definitions for light wind and also used equipment. If you have short arms or some other reason not be able to push bar out you can pull trimmer in. Some have a bit shorter back lines - even on purpose or shrunk - then you can compensate it using trimmer.

I don't get much that back stall thing, if you know how to fly kite what's the problem? And if wind is so weak kite is unable to fly, do something else.

Last winter my weakest session was 4-5kn (on nearby weather station at 10m height) on 17m kite. Of course it was a struggle and didn't make much sense. I dropped my kite once and I had to go and turn it LE up for relaunch (it stayed there over 2m high wall without any difficulty, on surface it was about 2kn). (Btw I consider LEI kite easier to relaunch in extreme low wind than foil kite because it stays up and doesn't stick to surface irregularities). Then I waited for wind for about 15min and was able to come back. I got 10km and top speed a bit over 20kmh. Challenge wasn't back stalling kite but to be able to keep moving and returning back. Every time you have to loop you lose some ground.

Another light wind one was more usual 6-8-10kn, then I reached 49kmh speed which is decent for those conditions. That session was not that easy physically, you have to edge hard to get even that high speed. With some race kite I could have reached perhaps 55kmh, but it would have been as hard work (even though race kites pull more forward than LEI's).

If you want to go fast (and you do because it makes low wind sessions somehow meaningful) you have to push hard. Pulling trimmer in is quite a lot giving up because then you lose max power

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby artificialname » Sat May 08, 2021 11:09 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 2:34 pm
artificialname wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:23 pm
Matteo V, can you recommend an online resource for an experienced LEI kiter who is starting out on foils? Your practical way of stating things - eg "don't sheet all the way in" is really usefull. Is there something like a list of principles or exercises to build up foil kite skills?
Best online resource would be ebay for a used HQ Apex open cell foil kite in 3, 3.5, or 5.5 (7.5 &up are pretty worthless for teaching).

This is one of the most terrible kites made, and has essentially not improved since V2. If you put some serious time flying this kite on land in less than 10knots, you will not only begin to understand foil kites, but also inflatables. While you think you are knowledgeable on inflatables now, the Apex will teach you how all depower kites really work.


To your question - I and others can give you advice here on this forum till our fingers are bleeding. We could say stuff like "let the kite breathe". But what the heck does that mean??? Well, it's our best attempt at conveying a feeling for the controls on a kite, though it falls flat on its face for the purpose of usefulness. You need experience. No academic tutelage can substitute for that.
Thank You Matteo. great advice. I will practice! What do you think of the Pansh Genesis? I don't expect it to compete with a kite that is 10x its price, but do you have any useful experience with it? Is it good to learn on?
https://www.panshkite.com/index.php?gOo ... oductname=

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby artificialname » Sat May 08, 2021 11:13 pm

Herman wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 10:26 am
From a newbies perspective I would say that looking for a trick to prevent backstall is the wrong approach. Much better to embrace it and practice using it. ...
Perhaps the greatest use of a backstally setting for me is simply being able to check the kite as it flys accross the window, important to me in so many ways.

PS If you have not mastered recovering backstalls by yanking on front lines..........
What do you "use" back stall for? launching and landing, obviously, but what else? what do you mean by "check the kite as it flys across the window".

And as for "yanking on front lines"...yeah - thats great advice. Not obvious at all to a newbie!

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Herman » Sat May 08, 2021 11:41 pm

It appears you did not like my comment on front line pulling and so I will say no more to you other than trim it out if you don’t like backstall.
Last edited by Herman on Mon May 10, 2021 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Matteo V
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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Matteo V » Sun May 09, 2021 12:00 am

artificialname wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:09 pm
[What do you think of the Pansh Genesis? I don't expect it to compete with a kite that is 10x its price, but do you have any useful experience with it? Is it good to learn on?
https://www.panshkite.com/index.php?gOo ... oductname=
There are some happy owners of those. I'd love to have one in 16m, and see how it compares to my hq matrixx v1's.

But I can say I've had enough experience with any pansh thats recent enough to give you any advice on other than the A15. However for the price, even if it's a bad kite, it'll be a cheap lesson in the smaller sizes.

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Matteo V » Sun May 09, 2021 12:29 am

kitexpert wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:55 pm
I don't get much that back stall thing, if you know how to fly kite what's the problem? And if wind is so weak kite is unable to fly, do something else.
Actually using backstall is definetly an individual thing.

I do it because it allows you to depower the kite into a more powerful position in the window. That may not make sense, but let me give it a go at explaining.

Not using backstall
So when you are riding along and dont want to use backstall, you get a bit overpowered, and so you sheet out a bit and try not to turn or redirect the kite, right? This gives the kite only one place to go in the window - to the closest edge of the window.

Actually using backstall
But what if you could depower the kite AND send the kite deeper into the window, and even redirect or loop it without getting any unwanted power? Well if you use backstall, you can. And think about how this sets you up for your next move.... your kite is now in a powerful position in the window, but it doesnt have much power unless you sheet it out. That's a real game changer, especially in light to medium winds that your average kiter doesn't think you can do much with.

Also with your kite stalled out in the back of the window, you can cut towards your kite without your kite overshooting you if you time depowering right. If the kite was at the edge of the window, you would need to redirect it, then wait for it to get into a deeper position of the window. To me, backstalling actually cuts the time it takes to do most turns or repositioning by 4 times. And the explosion of power you get on demand magnifies the regular rollercoaster of mow the lawn kiteboarding by orders of magnitude.

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby artificialname » Sun May 09, 2021 7:13 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 12:29 am
kitexpert wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:55 pm
I don't get much that back stall thing, if you know how to fly kite what's the problem? And if wind is so weak kite is unable to fly, do something else.
Actually using backstall
But what if you could depower the kite AND send the kite deeper into the window, and even redirect or loop it without getting any unwanted power? Well if you use backstall, you can. And think about how this sets you up for your next move.... your kite is now in a powerful position in the window, but it doesnt have much power unless you sheet it out. That's a real game changer, especially in light to medium winds that your average kiter doesn't think you can do much with.

Also with your kite stalled out in the back of the window, you can cut towards your kite without your kite overshooting you if you time depowering right. If the kite was at the edge of the window, you would need to redirect it, then wait for it to get into a deeper position of the window. To me, backstalling actually cuts the time it takes to do most turns or repositioning by 4 times. And the explosion of power you get on demand magnifies the regular rollercoaster of mow the lawn kiteboarding by orders of magnitude.
Great explanation. Thanks.

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Trent hink » Mon May 10, 2021 1:30 am

I almost can't believe Matteo V has said something I totally agree with.

Back-stalling is potentially a super useful way to regulate power when you find yourself over-powered.

Additionally, you can pivot turn and redirect the kite anywhere in the window with not much (or any) pull using backstall.

When there is good wind, I love using backstall on my smaller foil kites (Peak4, 3 and 4 meter) with the hydrofoil.

I see hydrofoil racers using it all the time too, but frankly, I do not have any real experience to comment on what they do.

It takes a bit of touch, if you find it too difficult, the simple solution is trim out the backstall. Then if you find yourself over-powered, consider rigging a smaller kite.

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Herman » Mon May 10, 2021 10:48 am

When playing in the waves a backstall setting gives you a choice of a depowered pivot loop or powered open loop at the bar without playing with leaders. Or a combo, eg tight depowered down loop at the edge of the window while you carve across the lines then sheet out to let it rip accross the window giving the power for a slashy carve.

Also if you are riding with the kite right at the edge, backing it deeper into the window, before down looping or flying it up as you sheet out to release the kite to forward flying gives a much more positive manoeuvre.

If you are going for Megaloops I am guessing you do not want a backstall setting to avoid a premature drop but my body could not take that sort of thing so that is only a guess. Using a microloop presumably rules out a backstall setting but Toby is the man to know.

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Re: Trick to keep foil kite from stalling

Postby Matteo V » Tue May 11, 2021 2:22 pm

Trent hink wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:30 am
I almost can't believe Matteo V has said something I totally agree with.

Back-stalling is potentially a super useful way to regulate power when you find yourself over-powered.
e8ea4646c087927c6dec57c92c4a76c6.jpg
e8ea4646c087927c6dec57c92c4a76c6.jpg (30.09 KiB) Viewed 771 times

Using backstall while overpowered requires you to actually reduce the wind speed to where you are no longer overpowered. Now you may think, there is no way to reduce wind speed when over powered, but actually there are several.

The first obvious one is to run downwind. This reduces the apparent wind at the kite allowing you to stall it. And maintaining a stall is easier than inducing one, thus you can resume a beam reach while keeping the kite stalled.

Another obvious one is to jibe, though it is kind of the same as above. I've noticed that most directional kiters who use backstall dont seem to have an obsessive fascination with tacking. But those that dont use backstall seem to like to tack as much or more than jibe.

A not so obvious way to reduce the apparent wind is to push really hard upwind which surges the kite forward. As the kite reaches the forward most position (actually over fly if you were on a beam reach instead of a close reach), you turn the kite hard while oversheeting. The key to stalling the kite here is to release your edge, which again moves you onto a broad reach suddenly. But even more important is to make sure the kite has begun to turn before you release that edge.

Another not so obvious way to reduce the wind speed is to loop the kite low to the water where the wind speed is (most of the time) less than higher up. This is once again typically coupled with a jibe or downwind turn. But once stalled, you can maintain that stall as you change course more upwind than you could have induced a stall from.


Bottom line is that usefully accessing stall while overpowered requires you to reduce the wind speed. This takes some skill, and that skill's foundation is built in light to medium winds.


Now if you really want to open a can of worms, I could go into how a quad finned directional allows the greatest access to backstall. Second place goes to a twin tip, and last place goes to a thruster directional.


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