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Speed system / mixer test explanations

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Regis-de-giens
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Re: Speed system / mixer test explanations

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:27 pm

merl wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:07 pm
Regis-de-giens wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:50 pm
:thumb: Yes, by looking at it in your link, they look the same ; my mistake sorry;
I have to remember why I thought Jacko would decrease the camber while sheeting in ... which is not the case on those mixers.
Maybe you are mixing up two things: The Jacko mod used on the pre 2021 genesis and A15 refers to a 2/3:2:1 (Bar/Z:C:B) mixer which will indeed decrease camber as you sheet in (in theory). But the picture linked above by Jackov was a new proposal to avoid this issue.
Ah ok !!! That is it, i started to be confused. Ok so there are two jacko and Indeed the second upgraded one is similar to Hawk (and paraavis vu the way) and keep the profil constant while Jacko 1 was changing it . Thanks for detailed clarifications.

Maybe i 'll try it one day on my Pulsion 18, and thinking about adding a sliding stopper on the additional spl, to choose a certain bar stoke after which this systeme engages or disengages and comes back to standard.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Speed system / mixer test explanations

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:20 am

Herman wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:14 pm
Re Regis/Hawk mixer:

Not sure I can follow your ratios and the mixer is upside down to me so forgive me if this does not make sense; but to me that looks the same as a standard mixer except for the rear pulley. This pulley means that if tension in Z is high it will be moderated by pulling the attached loop thus exerting a pull on C until the tension is even. Some might, loosely describe, pulling on C as reducing camber, but I would prefer to think of C as the forward part of the trailing edge, where a pull on it could actually be increasing camber. These are just first thoughts and are not necessarily correct.
Very interesting thought . I didn't want to enter in this reflexion and loose people in this "tutorial thread" but you're right, we should now;
my opinion, no condescendance here :wink:

- you are absolutely right the risk of Z pulling C ; this is exactly why I was affraid of the original Jacko even more than on Hawk; however as you said, a risk persist in Hawk as well: if we consider that Z could pull harder than C in a phase of your ride, you then loose camber as you guessed, but you also loose some AoA since Z get longer ... total change in the kite... this could lead to a sudden loss of power without rider input (no instability at first sight which is essential, because B, C and Z goes in the direction of more stability)

- this mixer, as my old Malabar one (and another intermediate we could imagine by connecting the line to B instead of C ) is based on an assumption that tension in Z always remains lower than C (or A in case of Malabar); which is mainly the case in steady winds on a foilkite where front lines have far more pressure than rear lines (on a foilkite, about 70%-80% front line vs 30%-20% rear line) => so C bridle has more tension and remains the master and is always kept as far as possible from the kite (fixed whatever the tension in Z); while Z bridle has less tension , is the "slave" and position is piloted by the position of the rear pulley when its tension is less than C.

- but indeed , in case of punctual turbulence or a special foil kite that would have hard bar pressure (like Conceptair Waves) , I think we have this dual mode risk, fortunately not leading to kite collapse at first sight as said above. So not catastrophic if it happens rarely.

- I can add that from what I discussed, bridle locations on Hawk and kite "setting" was done to decrease the bar pressure; maybe to compensate for 50% higher pressure of its special mixer but this also goes in the direction of a "compatibility" with this mixer, keeping Z always as the slave vs C since lower tension in Z by design.

Last remark about camber : I think your last question about possible increases camber is not true : If Z pulls on B, the camber (e.i. distance between C and the chord (A-Z) will decrease, so less camber)
Last edited by Regis-de-giens on Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Regis-de-giens
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Re: Speed system / mixer test explanations

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:42 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:50 pm
I'll look at previous posts again to chase the mistakes I could have done.
for a matter of clarity , here are the mixers for comparison and since I had difficulty to recover a sketch of the Jacko, I put it here , on the right in this picture:
jacko mixer.jpg
jacko mixer.jpg (8.01 KiB) Viewed 1153 times
it is "the original Jacko" as you said Merl, far different from the last drawing he did , so I suggest we keep "Jacko mixer" name for this original one otherwise we will get lost ... and this is the one still shown on youtube:
(very useful by the way) :


Jacko features :
- based on 2 pulley and not 3
- changes the camber when you sheet-out (increase of camber when you depower the kite and decrease stability when you sheet-out , hence why I am not fan of it in theory)
- bar pressure (+75%) (and bar lever arm) is intermediate between Malabar (= pulley bar = +100%) and Hawk mixer (=+50%)

The new drawing Jacko did in your link is indeed exactly the same as the one on the Hawk (with same potential dual mode described above, even if apparently not a real collapse problem, hence my "doubts" at that time), but it was already "discovered" before 2020 in our old threads on speed systems , and even already used on a Paraavis kite ; so to me it is more clear to avoid mentioning Jacko for this upgraded design, hope nobody will be vexed. And keep the Jacko term for the above picture on the right which is appreciated on A15 and genesis kites and very easy to modify. Do you agree ?
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merl
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Re: Speed system / mixer test explanations

Postby merl » Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:10 am

Regis, you mentioned the concept air wave as a high bar pressure kite. I think this is just because there is no Z gallery - it is a one pully 2:1 system.

I miss the z on this kite for ground handling. I was wondering which mixer would be best if you wanted to add a z bridle but only for stalling the kite. At first I thought a jacko bridle might work, but now I think it needs to be 4:2:1 but with some multiplication like the hawk mixer or maybe your Malabar. What do you think?

Regis-de-giens
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Style: 62 kg , light wind, waves
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Re: Speed system / mixer test explanations

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:26 pm

Yes i own a wave . Good remark on single pulley = higher pressure. You could do a similar mixer as Hawk, by connect on B instead of C .

but hard to Guess and maybe really too instable.

Should I try "something' on the Wave, i would add a standard 1:2:4 to be sûre it will work....and avoid increasing the bar pressure even higher with jacko or Hawk mixer.. Low ratio like waves often have higher bar pressure... ...

Or maybe better to take no risks : replace the wave by a Hawk or a frs, or a Hysper2 if you find one. Or a airwaves koala, rare but i found it very stable and efficient in 8m. Huge depower.

Pulsion has standard 2 pulleys in 3.69 m2. more stable than wave, better relaunch, very power full, better "structure". But less instant depower and less wind range that the very very large wind range of the wave 4.5m.

merl
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Re: Speed system / mixer test explanations

Postby merl » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:36 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:26 pm
Yes i own a wave . Good remark on single pulley = higher pressure. You could do a similar mixer as Hawk, by connect on B instead of C .
An ABC one-pully mixer is already double the bar pressure of a standard mixer, so you would not want it even higher by using the hawk mixer connected on B! I was thinking more of adding a z bridle - but now I remember that this only makes sense if you have the older models of concept-air wave like mine which have attachments for the z already sewn in. Newer ones don't have it so no point thinking about this mod.


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